WOT 256: The Year of the Nomad Angler with Dax Messet

In this episode we WadeOutThere with Dax Messett, from Medford, Oregon.  Dax moved to the Lake Tahoe area after college to pursue his love for the outdoors, and immediately found fly fishing as another way to explore.  He started his fly fishing journey on the Truckee River, and later began guiding in the surrounding Northern California streams and lakes.  Next, came year round guiding, winters in New Zealand, and a relationship with adventure that felt more normal with than without.

For Dax, fly fishing became his vehicle for exploring the world.  His vehicle for  traveling to exotic and remote places.  Visiting whatever mountains, lakes, rivers, and oceans that captured his attention and excitement.  Always with a fly rod in hand.

We discuss Dax’s perfect fly fishing year, covering where he would fish every month of the year and why, while Dax also shares stories and lessons learned that he takes from each fishery.  Twelve months. Twelve fisheries.  One passionate angler.  Here comes the Year of the Nomad Angler.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

In this episode, we wait out there with Dax Messett from Medford, Oregon. Dax moved to the Lake Tahoe area after college to pursue his love for the outdoors and immediately found fly fishing as another way to explore. He started his fly fishing journey on the Truckee River and later began guiding in the surrounding Northern California streams and lakes. Next came year round guiding, winters in New Zealand, and a relationship with adventure that felt more normal with than without. For Dax, fly fishing became his vehicle for exploring the world, his way of traveling to exotic and remote places, visiting whatever mountains, lakes, rivers, and oceans that captured his attention and excitement. Always with a fly rod in hand. We discussed Dax's perfect fly fishing year, covering where he would fish every month of the year and why, while Dax also shares stories and lessons that he learned from each fishery. Twelve months, twelve fisheries, one passionate angler. Here comes the year of the Nomad Angler. Welcome to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Shemchuk. At Wade Out There, we believe fly fishing is special, but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There. Welcome, Dax. Thanks for being on the Wade Out There podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Hey, thanks for having me, Jason. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yes, I'm excited to talk to you. And I'm really excited about the format of this show. It's going to be a little bit different than some of them, but I know you're traveling around and guiding all over the world and all over the country. And so for folks that are listening, we're going to talk about all different places that that you're working out there. But uh I would like to know about how you got to this place. How did you get to how'd you get started in fly fishing? But how did it kind of morph into this like year-round year of the nomad angler that we're going to talk about later? By the way, I think that's a super cool name, the year of the nomad angler.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

All right, on, and I'm a little less nomadic than I was, say, 10 to 12 years ago. I do own a house with my wonderful wife, Leslie, and our uh we just got a puppy. We just got a new dog, little Pedro. We got him a week ago. Cool. So he's eight weeks old, and um our dog prior to that was Marley, who um we was with us 16 and a half years, and kind of a famous sort of fishing dog. He's been in some some brands and brand ads and uh pictures of him, and just clients loved him. And um, so it was heartbreaking when he passed away.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

I'm sorry to hear that, man. That sucks.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

One of the worst pains in life, and um, we just had this big opening that Pedro's slid right into. We've only had him a week and already he's just like everything and can't wait to get him on the water. I was gonna say, is is he a fishing dog too? Oh, he's gonna be, he has to be because mom's a guide as well. Okay, so um we we pretty much incorporate the dog in every aspect of our our working lives, and he's kind of part of the tribe. So yeah, we're excited to train him. Couple questions. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

What kind of dog?

SPEAKER_00 3:41

He's a wire hair dochshall.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Wirehair dochshall.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

So he's gonna be about 20 pounds, um, uh, which um is great, easy to put his life jacket on with a handle and get him in and out of the different boats that we use. We use rafts, jet boats, drift boats, and uh and do some hiking. So he'll be I I think he's gonna be great at all those things. Um Marley was um a rescue dog, so he had like six different breeds, but the dominant breed was a a doxy because he had kind of that personality and kind of short, short little legs, short wheel or long wheel base. So um he'd balance on the the all around the raft, even through rapids, he'd be running around and yeah, it didn't really um end up in the water too much. Um that's cool, man.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

So that's the recommended uh breed in your opinion. It is, and I had the Goldie Lab fly fishing.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Yeah, you see a lot of labs and guide boats, and I had a Goldie lab, and she was wonderful. I had a German Shepherd as well, and those were great dogs, but they were bigger. So the the the the small breed, you know, I was Marley's stepdad. I he was with Leslie and I have been together about 11 years, so okay. Um he uh I didn't have him from his infancy, so um he kind of just grew on me in that smaller breed in terms of what what we do. Um I I really started to favor that, and so that's why we went with the wire hair, and uh they they were cute as heck, too.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

So fly fishing family, your wife and now dog. Yeah, that must be exciting and cool too. I mean, it's fun to do the things you that you like with the people you love.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Yeah, Jason, I'm just super grateful for it. You know, I've been uh as most guides will tell you, it's not easy on their significant others, particularly if you're doing a lot of travel guiding, like I did, especially um in the beginning. Um I started guiding in the truckie California area, and I did that for for the first summer and then started guiding in Northern California, and then the summer after then I started guiding year-round and then started guiding in New Zealand in the winters, and it just was super hard on um my relationships that I was in. And then um I ended up finding Leslie um in 2014. Uh, me and uh Confluence Anglers, um uh an outfitting business I work with um on some a bunch of stuff. Uh we used to do a guide school, and uh turns out Leslie was in the guide school, and I knew her dad from the old days in Truckee. Um, I didn't know her, she was much younger in just uh yeah, just different times of life. But uh her dad was was actually an early mentor. He used to uh he was big in the fly fishing club, which I highly recommend to you listeners out there joining your local FFF chapter. Um that was huge in my development, both in friendships and as an angler, and eventually um a guide. Um a bunch of guides were in that club and they kind of took me under their wing and I went it wasn't it wasn't long after I learned how to fly fish that first time in trucky. I didn't grow up doing it. I'm from Western Pennsylvania and went to college in Ohio and I got way into uh outdoor sports, snowboarding and surfing and skateboarding and stuff like that. And I moved straight to Tahoe right after I graduated, and I was way into just wakeboarding, mountain biking, snowboarding. And that first summer, um, a buddy took me fly fishing and I'd see the fly fisherman on the Trekkie River. Um, I'd be like longboarding along the bike path, and I'm like, man, that looks pretty groovy. Like I love being by the river, you know. Yeah, and my dogs would jump in those puppies that they jump into the river and spoil their spot. And I'm like, I'm like, why is this guy being kind of an asshole to me? Oh yeah, but now I get it, like, yeah, your dog didn't like jump into somebody's like drive by pool, you know. So uh right. Um, so to me it just appeared to be, wow, what a what a cool, you know, uh uh vehicle to get you outside and to explore parts of this river and and the lakes around the Tahoe and Sierra Nevada. And so that is for me, that's how I got way into it. I was, you know, just exploring the mountains and rivers and lakes anyway. Um so fly fishing was just a good discipline undertaking um to to do that.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Um and did you know early on that you were gonna be in the fly fishing professionally, kind of making a career out of it or making it something that you did, you know, year-round eventually? Did that happen on accident or did you make a very deliberate choice?

SPEAKER_00 8:29

That's a good question. Initially, I was just trying to not lose the only two or three flies I had because they were two bucks a piece, and I was uh just out of college, struggling and working three jobs, you know, just yeah, yeah, just trying to pay rent. And I'm like, when I'd break a fly off, I'd be like, damn it.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

And so I've got a buddy that fished the bighorn when he was a kid, and he used to run around the bank of the bighorn and pick the flies out of the places where people would lose them. That's how he got all his flies. Wow. He knew all the spots that like these are the they always try to catch fish here, and that's how he filled his fly box when he was a kid in Montana.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Oh man, that's kind of like diving in the pond at the golf course to the golf ball so you don't have to buy them. Yeah, that's brilliant. I love that. Um but uh yeah, so I I was just trying to not get in tangled mess and learn how to cast, and um but then like I said, I joined that club pretty, pretty, pretty quickly in it, and um man, just grateful. Like people took me under their wing and started teaching me how to fish the Truckee River, and um guys like Brian Slessser and John Roberts and Frank Pashoda, those are all kind of legendary um Truckee River anglers and guides, and taught me how to niph, you know, 85 to 90 percent of a trout diet in a river consists of subsurface aquatic insects. Um, so if you want to catch some fish, which that's kind of like part of the progression of of learning how to fly fish, is you want to have some success, right? Um, the the learning how to cast, you know, for some people, it's a whole discipline. There's people that just cast, especially spay rods, and they don't even fish all that much. Um, but I was I was a young man and I wanted to get them, and I was fascinated by trout. So I just started devouring books and videos and picking people's brains, and uh the mountain bikes started collecting a little dust, except when I used it to go to lakes with my fly rod. Um and uh those other you know things I really loved um that I moved to Tahoe for within a couple years. I moved there at the end of 96. So by the year in the year 2000 is when I got a guide license um and started working locally um with an outfitter, um, four seasons fly fishing. Brian, he's still around and um appreciate him and Trekkie River Outfitters. Um and then by 2001, I'm like I I had a I had lots of different jobs, but by 2001 I I quit all of them and just started guiding full time and had an opportunity to uh guide in New Zealand in the winter. So I kind of which is their summer. So um yeah, I think I think yeah, by 2003 I started was my first year in New Zealand, so I was just kind of chasing the endless summer, um, just not on a surfboard with but with fly rods, and just I was obsessed with it. And you know, New Zealand to me was just uh I'd see it in books and Val Atkinson books, and I'm like, again, fishing was a vehicle for me to go travel to wood to me, it was a really interesting, exotic, you know, cool outdoorsy place.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Yeah, I think to everyone, I think it's hard to get out of that place without being impressed, you know?

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah, yeah, spectacular in so many ways. Yeah. And um and then eventually.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Do you remember like a oh go ahead, sorry?

SPEAKER_00 11:55

Well, just that that travel thing, you know. I just um it and then I and so I had guided in in Montana for a little bit. I got it in Alaska and Washington, Oregon, California. Um, I was just um and then I started saltwater fishing, um, a whole nother. Then it's like now there's this whole other world. Like, do I move to Florida? Do I move to hit the the Bahamas? Do I, you know, I went to the my first saltwater experience. Yeah, I went to the Bahamas for a month and just hitchhiked and fished around with a buddy. And yeah, I mean, I just kind of got obsessed with saltwater for a while, and then like caught some permit, and like, okay, now I want to catch uh tarpon. Okay, so then got obsessed with that. Then you want to catch a permit, and then 20 some trips later I spent days of fishing for permit. I finally caught one. And yeah, um, and so then I okay, and then you want to go to Christmas Island, and so um, all these different, you know, places to travel. I I like immersing myself in those cultures if I can. Um, so that's why that that first like destination place I guided was New Zealand, and I I went for five months that first year and just immersed myself in that fishery and that culture and met amazing people and amazing friends. And um, yeah, I did that for eight eight seasons.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Why is that immersion important to you? I mean, is that something that you can do in a month? Is that I mean, is this it sounds like what you're saying is you've you've you lived this life where you're going and immersing yourself in these cultures, and then now that you've I don't know what to say settled down, but now you you've you've planned it out, you know like what you like about each place, and you can kind of bounce around a little bit more, I guess, efficiently. Is that accurate? Or am I missing the mark completely on this one?

SPEAKER_00 13:49

No, then maybe it's nice to uh, you know, in my I think like a lot of people in their 20s and early 30s, you just want to cram as much as venture as possible as you can and postpone real life, you know, and that type of responsibility with mortgage payments and growing families and things like that. And um, but here I am um 26 years later or so, and I still haven't grown up, I guess, but I do have a mortgage and I I like to have a home base, but um Leslie and and my home base and little Pedro got to include him now. It's strategic um because they have a home river here, the rogue, that I do not a ton of guiding on, but some. And it's nice to be um 15 minutes from an amazing, you know, river, Steelhead River. And then we have a great airport here. So for my hosted travel that I do four or five times a year, um, I'm 10 minutes from an airport. Um two hours from Northern California, where I do a fair amount of guiding that we'll talk about on the Fall River in Northern California and on the Klamath River, also in NorCal. So I'm only a few hours from those, and also a guide on the North Uncle, which is only two hours north of here. Nice. And then my other guide programs on the southern Oregon coast, which is about two and a half, three hours. So it's kind of a strategic location where I am uh where I I'm not home for more than three weeks at a time during a calendar year generally. Yeah, but it's I'm able to get to it within a few few hours or so.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Um let's jump into it. Let's talk about the year of the Nomad Angler. Let's start with we're gonna go month by month, yeah. And um I want you to just kind of like tell me what it is, how you got there briefly, you know, like what how'd it make the list, you know, uh because of all the different places, and then uh maybe I'll ask some questions about it uh that that uh make it special for you. So right on. That's cool with you. Does that sound good?

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Sounds great. All right, I'll start with January. So January, if I could be anywhere on the planet, it would be New Zealand. So I touched on it a little bit. Um, just the the people, the culture, they're just superb, wonderful people. And um, I've spent time on both islands extensively. Um, but my little business, I had a small outfit fitting business and a little lodge and a campground on the South Island in a little town called Garston, which is between uh Queenstown and Tianau. And um just I was in a little farming community. I was Santa Claus for Christmas, they took me in. And um yeah, I and you you touched on it earlier, Jason, like why that immersion uh uh a lot of time it ends up being the people and not just the fishing um that keep me going back to places and um the the culture of fishing in New Zealand, at least in my circle of uh angling friends and and buddies, um, upstream site fishing for beautiful wild trout and incredible environments, um, both in backcountry rainforests and um lowland kind of farm areas um with with cool spring creeks and freestones and the variety, you know. I fished over 200 rivers. I used to keep a journal and list down there of all the rivers I I fished. Um, and on any given day when I was guiding, if you draw a circle a couple hours around the lodge that I operated out of, um yeah, you could go to hundreds of places and it was just magical. So in my head, the Rolodex um just would would be spinning and the the variety was just tremendous.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Is there a memory that stands out to you, a fish that got away or or a story or something that every time you go back to New Zealand, it's the first kind of thing you think about when you're out on the river. Like, I remember that.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Man, the first time um I took a client who's also one of my best friends, uh Dennis Tanagucci. Um we uh we I I had been wanting to go to this um area that was only available, you were only able to get there by float plane or or a boat. And I started to go to some other rivers like that where I'd use those things and they drop you off and then you hike from there. And that was the other part about New Zealand that I was into. I was just, you know, in those late 20s, early 30s, I just loved hiking up into the mountains and um and following having something to do while I did that, which was sight fishing on these rivers. And so this particular river, um, that yeah, definitely won't ever name it. Um, we got there and it was just we hit the lotto in terms of perfect weather, the fish were around. Um, because you could do things like that in New Zealand, and there is not a fish in that river, or there there was something happened and there's not any fish there. It's not like a numbers game there, really. But that three-day trip, it was a I didn't count how many, but like we just caught all these unique, amazing both browns and rainbow trout, and it was just fantastic with one of your my favorite people, you know. It was just really cool.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Yeah, and it's early on, too, so it's nostalgia and way back.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Yeah, absolutely. My Toyota Hilux, and yeah, it's just oh the Hilux. Oh, best truck I ever had, man.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Oh, those are sturdy vehicles.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Uh turbo diesel stick. It was epic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Uh yeah, the Hilux. Um my background with the Hilux is somewhat different, but do you know? Okay, so I I would think uh as we go through these different stages of the year of the Nomad Angler, which I just like saying that, so I'm gonna say it more about uh what is there one or two techniques that you took away from that fishery that you carried with you that stand out for it could be, you know, they don't have to stack upon each other, but I'm gonna kind to query you on kind of like a tactic or technique that we you specifically kind of learned or made an impression on you in that in that fishery for that month that you took away into your fly fishing career.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

So that that it would be just that sight fishing is a skill in itself in terms of like f seeing the fish and having how important like good eyewear is um in terms of polarized lenses, like uh kind of overcasty day, you're gonna have that type of low lighter igniter type um glass in, and then on brighter days, you're gonna have a darker, more kind of uh copper looking frame. So I'd have two, I'd generally have two pairs of glasses on me, and as the conditions change, because it's all the way I did it was all sight fishing. Like even if I have two anglers, only one person's gonna cast at a time. So you're walking upstream, you start somewhere and you walk upstream and they're behind you, and it's like, okay, I got one. Mark, it's your turn, or who's and then you go up, and we talk about where the fish is, if he can't see it, um, which was fairly common at times, even though the water's crystal clear, yeah. That that being able to see them, it's and and when I'd first get there, I used to start there in November. So it'd take me a couple of weeks to sort of like, okay, the all right.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

And he turns acclimate your eyes to it.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Is there something that you remember that you did, or like uh besides the glasses, like a way that you would approach it or just go slow, or is it anything like that to remember?

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Yeah, my very first sighted fish. I was with Steve Sprague, who got me the gig down there. His wife was a Kiwi, and we were fishing buddies and um ski buddies from the Tahoe area. And so he moved down there and he's like uh he was there for a year, and he's like, Hey man, if you want to come down, I could get you some work. And so, of course, absolutely. So Steve and I are on the very first river. It was called the Waitanui on the North Island, and um I'm walking up river and he's kind of behind me, and I And there's no overhead predation in New Zealand. So there's no osprey or or or just nothing. These so these fish sit in crazy places sometimes that a a twenty-six inch trout in Montana would never sit in like two feet of water on the inside when there's boulders over on the other side.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

And I'm walking, and this giant I th I thought it was just a log or something like that. And it swims away and it's just, yeah, like a 26, 28-inch round trout. And he's like, Oh, dude, you screwed that one up. Like and and I'm like, Oh, I just couldn't fathom that that was a trout sitting there, you know? Yeah. And so I learned to look inside out always when you're upstream sight fishing. Always look inside and then across the river. Cool. Right?

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Inside out, good glasses. All right.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

And I would imagine that you took that with you forward. I mean, you take that when everywhere you fish after that. You probably carry two pairs of glasses at least in your truck or something. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Three, actually in the truck. Yeah. All right. Even for driving a boat, you know, like I drive jug boats a lot. And like the I man being able to see um well obstructions and into the it's yeah. So when that light changes, I'm changing my lens.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Yeah, that's good advice. All right, let's do February.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Um, Southern Oregon Coast um for winter steelhead. Um been doing that since I stopped going to New Zealand um in the winters. I needed a place to go and guide to carry on the year-round thing, or else I would have had to go back to the ski industry in the winter, which is great. Um, but I was just so focused on being a full-time guide at that point. So I had a couple buddies, Gino Brunero and John Hazlet, were guiding on the southern Oregon coast. Um, and so I went over to hang out. That first year I didn't go to New Zealand and just fell in love with that place instantly. Um, you know, and so I mean Johnny um and my wife guide there in the winters together. We do group trips. Um, and we fish three, excuse me, three or four different rivers. So if and all our trips are four nights and three days. So in an ideal world, you fish with me one day on a river and John one day on a river, and Leslie one day on a river, and you could fish three different rivers over the course of three days, which I think is really cool.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

That is very cool, that's very special.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

And we're all spay and we we have an instruction-based guide team. We all believe in teaching people. We'll take somebody that's never held a spay rod out there with somebody that's been spay casting for 30 years, and they kind of have an equal chance at getting one of those you know, special unicorn winter fish that we're trying to get.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Can you tell me a good news story? Somebody that comes out there and maybe they don't have very much or any spay and uh they have some luck. Is there any stories like that that stand out to you?

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Man, um, let's see. Man, uh the in and part of my mantra, Jason, the way I stealhead fish is it's not about numbers, it's about moments. Yeah. Um, because we're when we're swinging flies, we're choosing to catch a very elusive fish in the most difficult way possible.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

I've heard that before so many times from from you guys. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

And it's and it's true, and like and I did Bobber Olympics from a boat, I'll get a gold medal. I did that, that's how I started steel head fishing, basically using driftboat nymphing tactics to catch steel head, and then I had a couple mentors that are like, dude, just try the swing thing, it's epic, right? And you're a process-based guy, which I was, and I was a kind of a technical uh-based guy, and um, you know, even fly fishing, when I told you about being about seeing the guys on the Truckee River, I was attracted to the artistic nature of them casting, and and and go, and there were some great casters in that Truckee area. So the spay casting I'd see it, and so I kind of kind of gravitated to that part of it. Okay and then um you know 20 some odd years later, and that's it's the only way I I pursue Steelhead. Um it's a conservation-based way of pursuing them as well.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Is there a technique or uh tactic that that you've learned in that fishery in that time of year that you um carry with you throughout the rest of the year?

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Um yeah, if you don't go fishing, you aren't gonna catch them. So for winter steelhead fishing, people were kind of get obsessed that like, well, is it a good run this year? Or you know, the weather looks bad, or yeah, yeah, and then and then they they could it's pretty easy to talk yourself out of going to catch an elusive fish in the rain and sleep um in a tough way. Um so I think a lot of people talk themselves out of fishing. So I guess um a good lesson is um, you know, you should be aware of conditions, um, but if you have time to go fishing in the hall pass from the family or in your responsibilities, go fishing, man. Yeah, go fishing.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Can't catch fish if you don't go fishing. That's what I say.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

And and trips, when you have opportunities for trips, you know, and there's an opening, like for our trips, for instance, you know, we have 26 spots, and most of them get booked by the same people every year. So a spot will come open every now and then, though. And you know, I'll run it by somebody that's on the list and they're like, hmm-huh. The him I suggest or her, like, spots open on the dean or the the you know, some special place, and you get invited and you go. Don't worry about well, what when's my week? Or when is this? Like, I trust me, guides and outfitters don't don't book trips when they don't think they're not gonna get them. Because no one wants to get a fish more than your guide, believe me. Okay, in every respect.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

So that's a good uh that's a good lesson uh for someone who's catching hard to catch fish on the hardest way to catch them. Is that kind of what we talked about? All right.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Yeah. How about March? Let's do March. Man, I spent um nine or ten marches on the Olympic Peninsula um in Washington. Um, amazing fishery, great variety. Um, you know, though those fish um in terms of winter fish in the states, you know, all the blue lines in the Pacific Northwest down to California could could hold some big fish, but boy, I've seen some just amazing fish on the Olympic Peninsula. And uh, if you're a steelheader that likes swinging flies, it should be part of your your journey. And um March is a great month to do it. It was my I I used to like April there a lot too, but they started closing um my favorite river there um starting March 30th. Well, April 1st, they started closing the whole river. Um, and so um then I stopped going in April. But March is uh is awesome.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

What about fishing out there? Have you learned that you carried forward any tactics?

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Um don't worry about a bunch of people being in front of you um if you're swinging flies, um because you could get obsessed with going to boat ramps at four in the morning with headlamps and getting down to a certain run you want to be in first, and that's great, and that's it, and that works, but um I've just found that if I'm if I if I feel rushed and I feel like I'm rushing my clients, I don't think they like that experience as much as me kind of being calm and chill and getting to a boat ramp, and they'll be like, shit, there's six vehicles here already. I'm like, I'm not worried about what they're doing. We're gonna do what we could do best, which is fish and cast well, and um we're fishing the moving winter fish. Yeah, um, we're fishing close to the ocean, and um, you know, let's worry about what we could control, right? Just like the football coach. I don't care what they're doing over on that other side. We're gonna follow our game plan and enjoy ourselves. And if we're blessed enough to have a fish choose to eat one of our flies, you're gonna remember it, you know. Yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

I'm a believer in there's there's a force out there, or there's something like the it's part of like a confidence, you know. If you're confident you can catch fish, or you're confident and you're you know I think that there's the energy, man. If you're chill, like you just fish better. I think you you just cast better, you've you're more focused. Like I just think that that energy it's not required, but I think it helps. I don't know. It's could be, you know, it's kind of just uh you know, superstition, maybe a little bit, but I it if anything, it helps me enjoy my day better, so I'm gonna stick with my superstition on that.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Yeah, and and often it it it's like the the best person out there, the best angler out there is the one that's having the most fun, right? So if you put these expectations on yourself, whether you're going to a lake with a bunch of truck trout or a steelhead river or uh, you know, um the fishing in salt water, just just enjoy the process. If it's process based, then no matter what, you're gonna be successful. And I know that's hard to some of the maybe not total beginners out there, but that that like kind of they've been doing it a few months, and I remember those first few months vividly. I was like, I wanted to see some results, right? I was what I would call chompy, chomping at the bit. I want to get as soon as work was over, like slurrying black top driveways. I was doing that. I had a ballet parking business, I was doing all these craze jobs, ski shops, bike shops. I'd be frothing to get out there and a get you then get what enjoy tranquilo, you know. My guides in Mexico, tranquilo.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

Tranquilo, yeah. What is that? Oh, tranquil.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Chill out, dude. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

I took a guy out the other day that hadn't fished, and I I kept telling him we don't have to do anything fast today, dude. Like, there's nothing that we have to do that makes that we have to do fast. Everything can be slow.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

That's a lesson in life, really. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

All right. Um is there a story that stands out? I'm gonna ask you stories and a couple tactic tactics for each month. Is there something that could be a one that got away, could be a special day with a friend, could be uh biggest fish I ever caught in my life, or it could be like one of those moments you're talking about uh before.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Um let's see, OP moments. Um one of my good buddies, good client Tom Counts, brought um uh his son and his son's buddy, and one of my favorite buddy clients, uh Anthony Marr. And fishing had been really tough for a couple weeks, and the rivers were just dropping in shape. And Tom's not the most um in terms of like chill and tranquilo. A lot of him fishing is just to be around his buddies and and son, you know. And and and wouldn't you know it? I'm like, and Tom was, you know, he's figuring out spay casting, but kind of a beginner. So first spot, and I put uh Johnny was with us, and I put Johnny with the more chompy sort of son, and I walk Tom down to not tertiary water, but kind of secondary water, because he's like, All I care about is him getting one today or this trip, you know, three weeks.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

His son, he's talking about his son, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

Yeah, and we go down and I'm like, okay, just pull some line off and roll it out there, and he's talking. We're talking about okay, yeah. And he and he just and and and just like this third, just he was rolling his line out, boom, like 12 pound steel head, like just goes eight shit, you know, and we land it, and he's like, I guess I'm done for the day. I'm just I'm like, that's ridiculous, you know. Like I haven't seen a fish for 10 days, probably. And it's like, there it is, bright chrome, you know, epic fish. And um, and it's funny, um, because that was oh man, that had to be 12 years ago, let's say. And um, and I just and I had Tom on the lower Klamath just a few weeks ago, and literally the same sort of thing happened. He was casual, he gets there late. The rest of the group had got there the day before, and he go, I go to the first spot, kind of put him in it's okay, water, you know, and he's talking same thing, rolls it out, and boom, steelhead. Like, just got there. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

So that's the pretty that goes to our point or your point, I guess, of just being chill, and yeah, it'll happen.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

All right, how about we did April, so May.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

May I dig the uh the Florida Keys in May. Um so uh or like um Belize, you know, um basically a saltwater trip to that part of the world. Um, if you're looking at the keys though, that's kind of when the big migratory tarpon are going through. And it's pretty special just to behold that. I'm not a uh I oh I want to catch a giant tarpon guy because the bigger they are, the longer you have to fight them. And I just to me, I kind of like just to eat. I like watching them eat it. Um is is pretty fun and pretty special in May. Um, that's kind of prime time for for that down there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

What have you learned fishing for tarpon in May that you've carried with you as a lesson learned tactics-wise or technique-wise in the rest of your fishing?

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Tactic-wise, technique-wise, tarpon fishing. Um the uh the that modern saltwater rods are a lot better than they used to be, um, because it used to be casting an 11 or 12 weight back when I first cast them, um, which would have been probably 2004, I'd say. I went to the Cook Islands to Itataki and was fishing for GTs using a 12 weight. And um, I had some moderate success with that. But by the end of that week, my whole shoulder and elbow were sore, and they weren't from just fighting fish, it was from just casting a 12-weight a lot on there. Um, and now the rods like we the company I work for, Nam, we've got an 11-weight, and it's about it feels like an eight weight in your in your arm, right? So um I I just learned and and and all the premier flagship companies have much lighter heavy that rods and heavier weights, and that's just a really great um, it's kind of like shape skis in the ski industry. Skis got shorter and lighter and easier, right? Um, so I think you could see it say in the fly fishing industry now with modern rods and lines. Um, it's easier than ever for beginners and novices to get into it and have some success, even in these, you know, kind of um these like kind of top of your your dream list of, you know, fisheries that I'm talking about in this year of the nomad stuff. It's more attainable to your average guy now, I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

Okay. So that's something to take away to other fisheries is don't over overthink or overkill on the equipment that you're using.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, one more thing about I learned from Key's guides is that having your guide make your lunch is stupid.

unknown 40:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Go on. He the keys culture is you bring them lunch. Got it. And I and that was just total opposite of every other guide culture I'd worked in prior to going to the keys for the first time, and and the guide's like, why'd my lunch dude me making your lunch? I'm getting this boat ready at like five in the morning. Like, you want me to stop everything I'm doing before I pull you around for nine hours to make you a lunch? Are you serious? You did and so, and that was the entire Florida culture, also the Louisiana um redfish culture. And I kind of was like, Man, that's right. I hate friggin' making lunches. Like, clients should just pick them up, right? So for our group trips, we have a private chef, so your lunches are there. But for independent guide trips, uh, Johnny and I a few years back started, um, yeah, it's uh no lunch policy. Just bring your own lunch so we don't have to deal with it.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

That way when you're down there on one of those trips, so if I'm listening and I go down there, yeah, what what what's a good recommended uh lunch? I mean, I I'm not in my home, so I don't have my stuff. So you you pick it up from the store, you cook it in your hotel room, or what do you do?

SPEAKER_00 41:36

There's stores, it's depending on where you're at, because the keys, it's kind of a the keys is a pretty big fishery. Yeah, you could be up north and and and largo, and then you're down to marathon and Isla Marata and all the way down to so swing by a good taco shop or something, and there's usually that most of them have a place. Guides, it's not like good luck, dude. No, most of them they're like go here, got get them here.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

This is what I was gonna do. Just help me out time-wise. This would be better for all of us if you just pick it up. And it is all right. Uh, how about a story from down there uh that sticks with you? Memorable fish, one that got away.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

No, Doug Rone, who is another one of my dear friends, uh clients for a long time. Um, we're fishing together, and um we the guide we got along great with this guide, and he invites us over for like a bonfire beer night. And he's got this maybe, I don't know, nine-month-old um big lab, you know. And Doug's like, why don't you bring your lab on the boat? And the guide's and and Doug's a vet, veterinary surgeon, loves dogs. I love dogs, but I knew why he doesn't bring it. And the guy's like, Because he's the nine-month-old lab. I mean, it's chaos. We have to be quiet. He's a lab, likes jumping in the water. And Doug's like, that's nonsense. Bring him tomorrow. So we know where this is how so we bring this dog that's not trained to be on the boat, right? It's a home, it's a staying with mom dog, go on the boat when he's having fun, right? So um, so Doug hooks this huge tarpon and it's going, and the dog's just jumping all over the boat, and um, we get close to where he's gonna line and land the tarpon, and the dog jumps in the water at the tarpon, right? So he has tarping going, and the dog swim, and then to get off the boat, the dog used like the rods to get so he breaks like two rods. I think he broke two or three and splashes in the water, and I had a nice SLR. Like, so my lens got wet, like it was just a disaster. So there's my key story. If the guy doesn't bring his dog, there's a reason.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Sounds good. Yeah, let's do June. I'm liking how this is going, by the way. Are you are you liking this? Are you liking this flow? Yeah, cool. Good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 43:52

So uh let's do June then. So every June, um, I go to Fall River, California. Um, and it's a very it's one of the most unique um fisheries that I've been to on the planet, really. So it's a flatwater spring creek. Um, it's all private land. Um, and so over the 20-some odd years I've been guiding it, I've uh cultivated relationships with property owners. So I have three different accesses that I use on it. Um and so the way you fish that is from a an a John boat. Um, so that's just basically kind of like a small flat bottom boat. Um, and we we call it fishing off the hook. So we anchor the boat and we're facing we're we're facing downstream and we're targeting um fish downstream from us. So it requires um some pretty high-level casting skills and some line management sp skills. And so my favorite way to fish it personally is with dry flies. Um, and so when I'm on one part of the river, the uppermost part, all I fish are dry flies. Um, and then the middle and lower parts of the river, all I fish are a variety of sinking lines and dry flies. Um when I first started guiding it, I used to nymph it quite a bit too with these Spring Creek um nymphing rigs that can be quite successful there. Um, but it's just the way my um clients and the way I was um, you know, progressing on that watershed, I just wanted to pursue them with dry flies and sinking lines um and just have a real sense of accomplishment of catching their all native wild fish. Um there it's it's truly an amazing fishery and very, very unique um and great hatches in May and June, um, into July, actually, too. Um, but I focus on just May and June um on that river, and um I'm still head junkie and all that, but there's something about going to that river and sight fishing for trout that I don't see myself ever not doing that. Yeah. In uh in that time of year.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

That's not gonna be a part of your thing that you're gonna lose. Is that true thing?

SPEAKER_00 46:07

June is uh also June gets a hex hatch, which is pretty exciting. That's cool. Biggest mayflies in the world, and they hatch right at dark. It only lasts for 15 minutes or so, but it's just you watch the sunset over Mount Shasta. It's just kind of a it's almost a spiritual um uh uh process that you go through and then and then oh you start seeing a few hex popping and then all these giant trout just start hammering them and it's pretty pretty fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Is there a a story that you can tell with that with the a memorable fish or a uh one that got away for the for those dry flies or the hex hatch?

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Any of the above? I think the most memorable so the hex hatch happens in in the dark and so dependent and it and it's kind of migratory, it doesn't happen on the whole river, so it happens in just sections, so and so you have to be on it every night to kind of just understand where they're where it's gonna happen. And some spots are more consistent than others, but um the uh we used to um I lived on the river for a number of summers, um, all summer long, which was cool because the boat's in the water, and it just there you go. And I remember having this group that was kind of partying, yeah. Um, and so we were kind of partying too, and um, yeah, yeah, that's what you do, right? Oh my gosh. And so you're we're driving in the dark, and so um often if it's pitch black and there's no like moon, um, you use a spotlight, right? So I have this one guy running spotlight, and he's he's kind of inebriated, and he and and and I'm like, Mark, what what are you doing? And um put the spotlight on, and I kinda you kind of get to know the river, but still if it's pitch black, you know it's a real super windy river, right? It's it's yeah, yeah. And uh and he shows it, and I'm like, oh shit. And we I almost beached the boat, so I had to, I had and I was I was the the speed limit's five miles per hour, right? But in the dark, because you're so far away from where your access in those days it was far away from our access, so I was going faster than five, and I shouldn't have been. And um, so I had to corner and I fell out of the boat just enough to like where both my legs kind of caught the gunnel. No way, and so my back inside of my body basically I was able to pull myself back on because if I would have totally fallen out of the boat, it would have been a kind of a disaster. That would have been bad, disaster mitigated. So, yeah. All right, don't have a drunk guy working your spot like all right.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

How about uh tactic or a technique that you that you carried with you from this fishery Sega?

SPEAKER_00 48:57

Feeding line, feeding line the skill of feeding line, um so anchoring from a boat and being able to feed line is huge. Um, and I applied that um I did a guide season in Montana, and um, you know, usually it's easier for people just to you know cast and just let the boat catch your fish. But if you're able to get into a place that's super fishy and they're stacked in a small area and drop the hook and teach people how to cast and feed line, um, and I usually teach people how to do a reach cast. Um so it's an aerial mend, it's an aerial aerial repositioning of the line to achieve a drag-free presentation. So if you're able to do that in the air and then land it and then feed another 20 or 30 feet, you could catch all the fish in the spot and just instead of just the one that you catch as you're going by, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:52

All right, that's pretty good. How about July? Where are we going in July?

SPEAKER_00 49:58

In July, uh, I go to Bolivia um to at the end of July. It's a hosted trip that I do every other year for uh Golden Dorado. Um and that's uh pretty special trip. Um, we do a combination of we'll do some helicopter fishing. We also fish from the native boats, and it's it's it's for me, it's the most remote wilderness that I've been to and that we go to.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

Um Bolivia, is what you say?

SPEAKER_00 50:24

Yeah, in Bolivia. Yeah, all right. And so we fish for the primary target species, it's called a golden dorado. Um, it's not like a ocean fish Dorado, it's a fresh, freshwater fish um that lives in these rivers and and lakes um in the jungles of the Amazon. Um, and so this particular place I go to is a very remote tributary of the Amazon. And uh yeah, we fly into Santa Cruz, which is the capital of Bolivia, and then we stay there for a night or two, and then we um we go to this private uh airport and get on this small plane, and we fly an hour or so into the jungle, and then we get on a helicopter and fly even farther into the wilderness. And we yeah, it's um it's pretty internal. You're out there, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

There's not a lot of stuff that can go wrong out here. You're you're far away from hope.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

Yeah, it's it's an adventure. It's I think I mean it's among the most adventurous trips, I believe, you could take in fly fishing. Um I've been doing it now for um, I think my first trip there was 2016. So they've come a ways like so. This remote lodge that they built in the jungle, heck man, they've got Wi-Fi there, you know, the Starlink. And so you could come back and you need to adjust your um flights or something like that. Um, you could do that um and catch some scores if you're you know, you know, so you do have some communication, and um it's run by um an amazing group called Untamed Angling. Um, and Marcelo the owner, he's just um one of those guys that's just an incredible adventurer. Um, and he kind of basically pioneered that whole fishery down there. Yeah. Um, so it's truly an amazing experience for some people once in a lifetime, um, because it is expensive as you can imagine. Um for others, I got guys that do it every year.

SPEAKER_01 52:23

Um when you start talking about helicopters and airplanes and you know that's yeah, private planes, helicopters, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:29

That's not uh all right.

SPEAKER_01 52:31

That's still, I mean, people have got long fly fishing lives ahead of them, and that's not out of the cards for everybody for sure. That's right. What's something that you learned fishing there that you take with you, a tactic or a technique? Fishing there.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

Let me think. Always travel with um if you're going to a really remote place with um appropriate medications for adventure travel. And it inevitably everybody is sick for about a day there. There's almost nothing that could be done. So you want to take that um sick from like food, water, just probably it's likely water. Yeah. Right? Just it's it's you're in a river all day. And then and the they insist that it's probably not from the river, it's from Santa Cruz. Um, because the there might be some of the water, whether it's in the fruit or on your salad, that gives people that stomach jungle funk thing. Um, I don't know if I don't know which I believe. Um got it. So, but I've stopped eating the fruit in Santa Cruz. I just eat like steak and bread and keep it safe. And uh I still end up like feeling a little weird after a day in the jungle. So don't want to talk anybody out of it either, but it is the jungle and it is an adventure, and there's nothing like being dropped off in a helicopter in a place where human beings haven't even been, right? There's just no reason for even the natives to go to these places, right? So in terms of like wilderness feel, there's just there's nothing like it. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

All right.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

Story Oblivious story.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

One that got away, memorable fish, or just a special time with some someone special.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

Um, let's see. Uh when you first get there, um that you get there kind of in the afternoon, and they and the guides aren't guiding you that afternoon. They're like, if you want to go just fish for a couple hours before cocktail hour, go for it. And so I I had a host I host groups there. So um, and I think it was my third trip. So I and and as a trip host, you do some fishing, but not a ton, right? It's really for your guests. So um I go down and I get everybody going that hadn't been there before and kind of kind of explain how it's gonna be. All right, we're we're normally gonna be sight fishing if we um go way up into the system, but here we're just gonna blind fish um, you know, logical water. And um, so I'm getting people doing that, and you're using streamers, right? So it's kind of something most guys, fishermen are used to. And um, and I'm like, I'm just gonna walk up here to this, you know, next area, and I didn't expect to see anything, and uh and everybody's fishing away for like 45 minutes, and I get up there and I'm I'm like, oh my god, look at this fish. I have to try to catch it, you know. And maybe I should have called one of the other guys up to check it out, and but I didn't. Of course, I can't he goes ballistic, and then one of the guys comes up and it's a big one, like it's and it's like I I was done after that type of thing. So um yeah, yeah, I kind of wandered up and caught somebody's fish that I don't know what I learned by that. Just um it's memorable.

SPEAKER_01 55:59

It didn't have to be memorable. It just has to be memorable.

SPEAKER_00 56:03

It was a cool fish. You know what though, Jason? It was the only one I landed that whole week.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 56:08

That was the only that's the only fish I got that whole week.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

Take advantage of your opportunities is the lesson there, I guess. There we go.

SPEAKER_00 56:15

Yeah. Yeah. All right. About uh August. Um, in August, um, it would hard be hard for me to just pick one place because every August I spend um a week up on the Dean River in British Columbia, and um steelhead mech among steelhead meccas for rivers. Sure. Um I go to my good buddy Jeff, Jeff and Catherine Hickman's lodge called Kim Squid Bay Lodge. Um, most of the times my wife Leslie joins me, and we just take a group of uh great clients and friends, and um it's it's just an iconic special fishery. The fish are amazing. You have an opportunity there to fish the tide right into the into the ocean, which is a pretty unique thing. Um, so I like that part of it. And um, if you could get on the upper river, um, you're up in this amazing forest and the scenery, I'd go there even if I didn't fish. Um, just the lodge is is that fantastic, and the people that work there, um amazing guide staff, um, and uh just an incredible place. Um, and the other place that I would split time with um that time of year would be the North Umqua River in southern Oregon, uh South Central Oregon. Steeped in history, um unbelievable uh scenery, although it did burn um from a terrible fire a few years ago um that I actually was in um and made it out there okay. But the place I was in burned down sadly, and um but thankfully nobody was hurt um and we made it out of there. Um, but um in terms of like skating dry flies for steelhead, um, that's probably on my list of top three to attempt to do that. Those fish just look for it there, they just they dig it. Um, you'll catch more on the think tip, but you're gonna remember those ones on the dry fly on that rivermore. And same thing for the Dean, also a great dry fly rivermore.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

So, this is the time of year, this is the month when if you want to do that, this is where you think you should be doing it.

SPEAKER_00 58:20

Absolutely. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 58:21

Not that you couldn't do it other times, but this is just a good time.

SPEAKER_00 58:24

Primo, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

Okay. What's a tactic or uh uh technique that you carry with you from this month of fishing?

SPEAKER_00 58:32

Um the the best way to get one on a dry fly is to use actually use one. Um a lot of I'll have clients and and other anglers, like when I go to events and do presentations, um, you know, they'll they'll ask me, you know, about why I skate dry so much. Um, and it's because that's how I really like to catch them. I like seeing them come up. Sure, so does everybody, but everybody likes getting them too. And um it it's you're already swinging for them, which makes it hard, but using a dry fly makes it even harder. Um that's why I do like gravitate to certain fisheries where the dry fly thing, there's certain rivers that they have just more of a surface-oriented steel head that lives in them, and the Dean and uh the North Umqua on those months, those are two of my favorites.

SPEAKER_01 59:23

Yeah, how about a story or lesson learned one that got away?

SPEAKER_00 59:29

Um memorable or just memorable. Man, first the first uh steel head I caught on a dry was on the North Umqua with a good buddy and mentor Mike Peters. And um, and uh I was uh I I hadn't tried dries that much because I was still in the chompy stage of my steel head fishing, you know, doing a lot of nymphing on the Trinity and whatnot. I was swinging some though. Um, but um Mike was uh as long as sun wasn't on the water, he he's like, fish this dry fly. No, you'll it'll happen. It was my first spot um I fished on that river. So talk about like getting hooked, like my first spot I swing a dry to fish and I landed it. Uh was sold. And yeah, 20 years later, um, it's one of my favorite fisheries. I guide on it. Um, it's special. Um, there's only right now, there's only seven guide board permits on the flywater section, and it took me a long time to get that permit. They're not easy to get, and I'm really grateful that I have one. Um October. Um, well, September is the Skina. Did we skip September? We skip September.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

Oh, my file. Yeah, I've got I'm writing things down here, but I must scratch that up. September. Okay. Thanks for keeping me honest.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:49

Yep. September will we'll we'll go. Um we could kind of let's blend September and October. No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:56

Do September. Do September.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

Yeah. Um September. There's a lot of places I'd like to be in September, but I have to be on the Skina. Um, and it could be the Skina, it can be any of its tributaries, which are ones that um, for those of you that um know and those that don't really, I love the Skina, um, I love the Zymotes, I love the Kispiox, I love the Balkley, um, Babine, all those rivers are amazing. Um, I personally favor the main stem of the Skina because that's where all the fish that are going to all those other famous rivers have to go through. So I like I prefer, uh I I won't say prefer, but I I tend to fish the lower skina more than everywhere else. Um, I host a trip for um two to three weeks sometimes um at a place called Skina Spay Lodge. Um it's just a fantastic lodge, um, just like Hickman's. Um, it's just run by one of my great friends, Brian Niskin, his wonderful family, and just an amazing crew of guides. Um, and they just focus on the lower Skina. Um, and I I like that aspect of it, and um, they're incredible at the things they can control, which is food, a combination, um uh uh uh safety and and great boats and great guide staff. And um if you hit it good, man, you're catching a fish that might be on his way to the babine, except he's a hundred and some miles away from that, you know. So it's just pretty special um to catch fish low in any system um to me. Um so yeah, all right, love the scene in September.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:34

What tactic have you taken away from that or technique that you carry with you?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:40

Kind of similar to one of the other ones, pick your week and go. Um, don't try to outsmart yourself. Well, so and so went there in August 28th to September 3rd, and we went from the 15th to the 22nd, and we didn't have a great week. We had bad weather, so I want to change it to that other week, and then you you change it, and then that week isn't good for whatever reasons, weather or conditions. So you keep bouncing around weeks, just pick a week and do it because any September 1st to September 31st can be epic on every one of those rivers, any of those gaps. So just gotta pick a week and go, don't think about it, don't be like, I'm just gonna go in late October instead. You know, you don't yeah, those fish are starting to stage to spawn in some of those upper tributaries. It depends on where you're at, not all of them, but um, September is primo to beyond the Skina. Yeah, okay, it's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:38

How about a story?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:41

First trip to the Skina. Um, I meet my buddy whose name is Dean Bell. He is one of my mentors on this uh the Skina system, and I met him in New Zealand. We did some guide trips together. He's a legendary guide in New Zealand. Um, and he's booked forever. I'd I'd say that reach out to him if you ever go to New Zealand, but it's uh he's pretty much at this stage invite only for his guide trips. He's just set forever, but um unbelievable angler and guide, and uh so he picks me up from the airport and it's dark. I think it yeah, I got there late, and we drive like two hours to this to this gravel bar, and we camp on this gravel bar, and we build a fire and got after it maybe a little too much. So I re- and Dean is all about being on the water fishing right as the sun comes up. It's it's he does it every single day he's there. It's just this it's spiritual to him, right? And it's productive up there. And uh, so he's in a little water master, and and we wake up and I'm a little groggy, and and he doesn't drink coffee, like a fisherman that doesn't drink coffee, and I'm just like, how do you even function in the morning? Like, really? So, and but he does he just drinks like he drinks like Coke Zero, yeah. That's so like guzzle of Coke Zero, and then he gets in his water master and rows across in the dark, and he's like, Walk about a hundred yards down and start fishing. That's a really good area there. So I walk down and I start fishing, and the lights finally up a little bit, and I kind of see where I am, and it's like first morning in BC. And in in the viewpoint, if you know the area, um, it's called Seven Sisters, and they're these unbelievable mountain peaks. It's just like this surreal, you know, some coming up, the birds are, and it's just surreal, and I look across and boom, he's on. Huge fish, skinny steel, and he's on. I'm like, wow, that's cool. And then um, so I fish a little bit, and he's kind of yelling at me to move downstream, and I'm fishing water that to me looked epic, it looked awesome. Yeah, and boom, he's got another one, right? Yeah, still in it. He's like, move down. He's getting annoyed almost instead of like he's kind of all about business when he's fishing, you know. Yeah, and um, and I'm like, dude, you just caught these two unbelievab. He's like, move down, keep going, keep going, and then he goes, Stop. He's like, right there, and dude, my next cast, I throw it out there, and I hooked this unbelievable hen, gorgeous, huge hand, the biggest steel head I had ever seen at that point. Yeah, and um, and I landed and he's like, Thumbs up, and then boom, he got and like we hooked like 13, I think, that day. So that was my first day on the skino. We hooked, yeah, I think which is ridiculous, right? On the mainstay, that's just a ridiculous day, and that he was able to call out where to stop on this giant river, it was amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:40

How did he know? I mean, what what was he seeing that you weren't seeing or something?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:45

20 some years, it was this, yep. And it and it's this one spot. I'd never say the name of it, but it was the spot in a good spot. But like to me, I didn't recognize it quite yet. And now I now I know that spot, but it might change a little bit. Gravel gets pushed around and stra, but there's actually a little piece of structure there that year, anyway. Um, that actually changed through there. Um, I went and looked at it actually um a few weeks back, but anyway, um, that was a pretty special memorable moment. And then the river blew out the next day, and we didn't fish for like five days straight. So, like, yeah, so I went from like the greatest day of fishing and because we woke up in a place and the river was we got to fish it for like we didn't have a magical morning. We hiked it, we did this gnarly hike like into this canyon where you needed rope to get down to it, and it's the dark, you know, we're backpacks in the dark. Dean Kiwi adventure, adventure kind of guy, right? Yeah, and so uh, and then we get there and it would rain all night. I slept at dude wet tent. Yeah, it was brutal. And Dean would sleep in the he'd rent a van and sleep in the van. And so I'd have to pitch a tent every and then pick it pitch it and then break it down before anybody would see uh where we were. That that was the kind of plan we would have in some of these places. So anyway, um yeah, blew out and then we had a rough five days. But then the last couple days I was there, because he would go for a month. And um that first trip I just went for like maybe nine or ten days. But then after I saw his program, I started then I would just drive there and spend four or five weeks there. I did that for a number of years and then just started hosting um trips to lodges. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:32

All right. October. We're on to October. We're in the home stretch here, the last quarter.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:38

Yeah. I would go Klamath. Um a lot of people Klamath could be throughout the summer, July, August, September, but I I dig October. Um, and so I spend a couple weeks down there working every October. And um the Klamath um has possibly the best. Well, it's not possibly, it's kind of the greatest conserv conservation victory in the history of uh steelhead fishing or um salmon fishing. They removed four dams over the last few years and um opened up around 600 miles of uh new spawning opportunity for anadromous fish. And it was a multi-level deal where the tribes got together with a lot of other stakeholders. I think around 30 different groups got together to make this happen, and it took over 20 years, and they're finally gone, um, and they've been gone for a year, and um we'll see how it goes, but so far, so good. Um, the water temps were definitely cooler when I was down there in early September, was my first trip down there. Um and um the the the habitat is much better now. Um, there's there's uh it's just it's a great story um that shows that people could work together to get something done that's good for all instead of fighting each other all the time about a resource. So I'm really stoked about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:05

How about a tactic or a technique that you take away from that month and that fishing?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:10

Even if it feels like it's too cold, you could still fish muddler minnows. Okay, which is a just subsurface steelhead tactic. All right. Um, very popular on the Klamath. Um, so for those of you that don't know, it's you fish a floating line. Um and a muddler middle kind of it doesn't um skate across the surface like say a foam body um type tide fly does as much. Um so it depends on the speed. If it's glassy, you can see it on the surface. If it's a little bit ch bumpier, it might be an inch or two below. But no matter what, you see the fish crush it, and it's super exciting. And um it's it's kind of common in steelhead fishing to be like, oh, when the water is too cold, the fish won't eat floating line stuff. Well, that depends on where you are. Um, a river like the Thompson was famous for November fishing um and cold with fish still eating dry flies and freezing cold water. So um the Klamath in October, um, it's less crowded and they still will eat a muddler in October. So I guess that's what I take from that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:16

Okay. How about a story from October? Um let's see.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:23

Jeez, a clam is a memorable big fish, lost a fish. Oh, I I caught a um I was swinging for steel head and caught a dime bright chinook salmon that was maybe 25 pounds or so on a five-weight. I was fishing for half-pounder steel head, which is um a smaller size steel head, anywhere from eight inches to twenty inches or so. And so when you hook, you know, uh 25-pound salmon on tackle that you're chasing something. Five weight? Yeah, five weight, yeah, spay rod, yep. And um, so yeah, it took me quite some time to land, and uh Leslie was with me, and we weren't we weren't um together at that time. She was our chef for a spay camp that we do down there, and so she came down there. I I mean I had to chase this fish down around a couple corners type thing, um which wasn't easy, and I landed it. I can't believe I didn't break the rod, and so yeah, that was a pretty special memorable moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:27

I was gonna say, did you have to move a lot? Were you running around a lot?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

Or did you think every ounce of angling fish playing skill I had, not to A, break it off or B, break my rod and C land a fish. It was just hooked right perfectly in the corner of the mouth. I was using, I believe, maybe eight or ten pound maxima, not what you would use if that was your target species. You'd be using probably a nine weight and 25 pound maxima. Um that's okay. Kind of what I use for I use this stuff now called Zentai. Um, it's the strongest leader material there is, so it's like twice as strong as maxima per diameter. So I'd actually use that now.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:08

So do you what lesson or tactic you take away? Maybe a fish fighting kind of um something you learned about fighting fish or no something I take away from that is if you take out dams, the fishery will recover.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:24

So let's hope that happens on the North Umqua with the Winchester River or the Winchester Dam and on the Snake River with the lower four dams that are clogging up that thing and fish migration. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:36

All right, fair enough. October is done. November.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:41

November we're in November now. November. Um, I like the rogue in November. Um that's where you are right now. You're where I'm at right now, actually home. And um, yeah, it's a it's an interesting month because it the it's almost like October 31st passes and the crowds leave. And I wouldn't say the rogue is an overcrowded river, um, but it's substantially less crowded. Um, I was just out there the other day, I saw two other boats. So the in the winter, in that, you know, on the Oregon coast, I fished the lower rogue. So that's a 120 or 30 miles from here. Um, so they're quite different. Um, and so I'm fishing for summer slash fall steelhead, you know, in November here. And um, there's still some fresh ones that'll move in. We'll still get some you know, newish fish. And um it's I like the the tranquil the tranquility of it up here with the crowds kind of diminished.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:42

Um it's gotta be nice to be home too. You're kind of like this is your month to be yeah, you know, cozy in your place in your own thing, my bed, you know, come home.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:52

Um yeah, that get some yard work in, watch football, and and still have a river in the backyard. And because all these other places I talk about, I'm always staying either in a rental place or a guide house or in tents or into my truck or whatever. So it's kind of nice to uh and some people were like, well, just guide the rogue for five months straight. Because you there's actually fish in the rogue steelhead year-round, which is a unique part of the rogue. Yeah, it's not like I would build a business on targeting them in some of the more obscure months, but um, but certainly um I could guide every single day in November and and have with confidence. Um, some it's like all rivers, steelhead, it's cyclical. Some years are better than others. This year, the run happens to be, you know, I think a good amount of it is still coming, actually. Um, because further downriver, um, down below Grants Pass, the last few weeks, they've they're still having pretty good good fishing, where up here it's been a little bit slow. So heck, I think all the way into the end of the month we could have some new fish showing up. So um pretty cool. We're about to have, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:59

Yeah, that's really cool. How about uh what's a story from the rogue in November? Let's say uh lesson learned. Fish that got away. Um it's gotta be a fish that got away. There's gotta be something that you're like, ah man, that one sticks in my craw.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:15

Most of them get away, but um let me think of a rogue story. I'm a rogue story. Um, the first time I uh the first time I fished the rogue, um it wasn't in was it? It might have been November. It might have been November. Um, it was just the first uh time I saw some carnage in the parking lot. It was uh there were these um cement kind of dividers like right next to the boat ramp. And um uh every guide, every person that owns a boat's always terrified of having the shuttle driver drive away with your truck, right? Um, and I always hire shuttles, I just I can't stand running my own shuttle. And so um, and we were in my truck, and I'm talking to my buddy, and and I'm like, So do you know these shuttle drivers up here? And he's like, uh they're fine, they're fine. And like as we're having this discussion, we see the shuttle people jump out, and um, this guy backs up and he totally annihilates one of those concrete dividers, right? And it kind of gets like wedged in the the between the the fender of the tire, and he just even he's just trying to drive it like that. It's like and he's and it's just like and so that's uh that's well, there's not a lesson learned, it's just it's the lesson is I guess what a bummer that you give somebody keys to your favorite truck and rig, and double driver can annihilate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:50

Yeah, it's kind of like a risk you have to take if you don't want to run your own shuttle, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:55

That's part of it, yeah. That's part of it, yep, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:59

How about a tactic or a technique?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:03

I know it might sound repetitive, but boy, I like fishing dry lines and dry flies, even in November for steel head. Um, so I just swing flies anyway. But um a couple guys I had the other day were perfect. Um, I was talking about what setups I bring, and often I'll bring like four different rods, both for people to cast, but I'll have four different setups on there. Um, they might be different sync tips, um, different flies, um, but I'll always have uh a dry fly on there. So even yeah, just always even in November, I like skating dry flies, especially if it's overcast. Um, yeah, absolutely. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:43

Yeah, I had Dek Hogan. I talked to him a while back, and I know he's kind of a big spay guy and loves the steel head, right? Yep, and that's one of his things too, was like you are never gonna catch fish or never catch steel head on a dry fly if you don't fish the dry fly. He's like, there's you gotta do it to do it, you know. Sounds like that's something that you have made clear the priority. Yeah, yeah. If you like it. Um it seems like lots of people want to do it, but they don't want to put the you know, just put it put it out there and do it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:19

Like it's a commitment. Yeah and while you're doing it, you're you're taking away uh not taking away, it it it's hard for some people to get the thought out of their head um that man, if I was fishing a sink tip, I would have got one by now. Yeah, but you don't know that. That's true, and um, and I have people that hire me specifically to fish dry flies, and uh one little funny one I hire this dude's he's like been fishing the rogue a long time, never got one on a dry, and we we get out first thing in the morning, I put him in and he's with a buddy, and the buddy's like, I just want to catch one. I'm like, Okay, cool, you could fish a sink tip behind this guy, and um, and this guy's like, Well, what do you think do you think he's more likely to get one on the sink tip? And I'm like, What difference does it make? You told me you wanted to get one on a dry, and he's like, Well, if you think I'd get one on the sink tip, I'd rather fish the sink tip. And I'm like, see? Those are two different things, brother. You haven't got one on a dry yet because you don't want to commit to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:22

And so uh Yeah, that's funny. All right, I was like, um, December. We're we're wrapping it up. Wrapping it up we're wrapping up the the year of the nomad angle.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:35

A cool place to go in December is New Orleans, Louisiana. Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:39

I wasn't expecting that. This is good.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:41

Yeah, it's an interesting one. So, you know, you could the so that that delta down there, um, you know, when you're fishing down in the marsh, as you would say, um the the big the biggest redfish of the season, um, they start coming in probably October, I'd say, and then by December is probably your best shot at a truly big redfish um out of the Louisiana marsh. And um, so I I took last year off, but um, I've hosted a bunch of trips down there, and I've I've got a driver, we stay in the French quarter. Um, I love food, and um, I have just a bunch of restaurants dialed there, so I'll make reservations for two of the four nights, and then we kind of ad lib the other two nights, which is kind of cool to change it up a little bit. And um, you know, the weather can be bad, you can get blown off the water and have canceled days, but if you're staying in the French quarter, that's not too bad. Um, you know, it's different than staying on a live aboard or something like that, or just in some VRBO somewhere. Like we're in the quarter. Um, I know my way around there pretty, pretty good. And um, I do trips to six people, and um, we we end up having a really good time on that trip.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:55

Is it very far to the fishery? Is it a long, long way?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:57

It takes us 50 minutes. Okay. So um, we wake up in the morning, we go to my cafe beignet and get our beignets and our yeah, this is sounding sandwich.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:06

Sounding very Gucci now, sounding nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:08

Yep. And then um, James, shout out to James, he's the best, he's a great driver, local dude. Um from from from the lower nine. But uh, and then we go to this out hole in the wall deli I found that's just kind of in the hood that just has the best po-boys ever. Okay. And um know those guys go in there, and we're with James, so we're we're all good. And and then um, so we have just the best breakfast, best lunch, and then we go out to like just awesome dinner. And um, I've been to a lot of lodges, and I love that lodge program, but boy, it's kind of fun to just kind of you know, we'll we'll have our dinner and we'll go out for maybe a bourbon and watch a little music and then um not take it too far because it you don't all fishing sucks hung over, but you don't want to be on a flats boat hung over. Um especially sucks. Man, that'd be yeah, it'd be rough. Um but um and yeah, red fish are great. You could see them um fairly easily when they're doing the right thing. They call them floating pumpkins, they kind of float around like a pumpkin and and you hunt them. And we use uh we we use guides that most of the time we've got a couple local guys we'll use, um, but they're coming from they split time between the keys and um the marsh. That's a common thing for a keys guide to do to extend his season, his or her season. They'd go they'd go to either Louisiana Marsh or or do some red fishing in Texas. Um that's when you get the biggest fish of the season, is in that November, December.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:39

All right. Um how about a tactic or a technique that you use in that fishery that carries with you to the rest area? Or you learned, or maybe when you picked up there too, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:53

Well, in terms of the the fishery, the fishery is the reason why I go, but also the the the off the water experience in the French quarter is awesome. And the main thing I've learned there, which is about any city, is don't go anywhere alone if you don't have to. Because cities are friggin' dangerous. That's a good life lesson. It's yep, at least a buddy, right? And so first night when I'm there and we're all at dinner, I say, look, if anybody wants to go out, man, you gotta go with somebody, right? So that's why after dinner I'm always like, Oh, you want we all want to have a bourbon if two dudes want to go back to the hotel, whatever. And um, and it's worked every time except once. The only time somebody went out on their own, you know, something unawesome happened to them. So that's something that I've learned from there, and I'll take with me. No need to do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:46

What about fishing was anything from the fishery?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:49

Um, tide awareness. Man, I had a guide uh kind of miss a tide, and we got man, we got high and dry. It was brutal. Um, we made it off, luckily, but you know, he was go and where he went, he was going for it. You know, like I said, the guide wants to get him more than you, perhaps. And I I could tell where we were going, and I just had that Jason back. I'm like, I wasn't comfortable. I've done a lot of flats fishing. I knew, and I'm always looking at the tides. I'm like, man, this would be out here a long time if we get stuck, and sure enough, we did.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:29

Can we drive this boat faster than the tide is going out from how far we are? Yeah, I get you.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:34

Brutal. Um, okay. So, but we made it and we're at at pickup on time, and so yeah, but it was sketchy for a while, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:42

Well, dude, I think we've covered every month.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:46

We're about an hour and a half in. We talked about a lot, a lot of good techniques, a lot of good stories. I really enjoyed this one, man. Um before I start wrapping it up, I just want to I want to ask you a little bit about how can people find out more about you? How can first of all, before we go down there, is there anything we missed or anything you want to say? I don't want to just like put a put a stamp on it and call it done. We've done the the year of the nomad angler. I feel good about where we've where we've gone on that journey. Uh is there anything else before I start wrapping it up that you want to get out there to folks?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:22

No, I'm good. My website, I'm easy to find. It's just my first name, Daxfly.com, D-A-X-F-L-Y. And on there, um, it talks um basically a bit about my hosted trips and um my guide trips. Um and uh the other thing I'd like to promote is um on the national sales rep for nom products, and that's namproducts-usa.com. And we make premium fly rods. Um, we also have Einerson Reels, and um we've got the best shooting line in the industry. Um, for those of you who don't know, that's what spaycasters use um after their shooting heads. And uh, we also make the best um leader material in the in the industry called Zentai, um, and it's fluorocoated mono. And I kind of brought that up earlier. It's it's twice as strong as all competitors' brands. So if you want to use have the actual absolute strongest connection between you and your steelhead salmon, tarpon, whatever, um, this stuff is unrivaled.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:30

Okay. We're gonna link to that in the show notes so people can check that out. Check out what you're doing, uh, link up with you or check out some of those products that you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:40

I mean any questions, feel free to reach out. I usually get back to people pretty quick.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:47

So before I ask my last question, I do want to say the year of the nomad. Is this built into your DNA? Is this how you feel the most comfortable? How did is this the type of person that you are, or did you become this person because of what you love? What you know, what came first do you think? Like what is it for you that makes this just love to travel? Or this is just where you found yourself, I guess. Or you just love fly fishing and uh and then you became that person.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:25

I think somehow it was in me, Jason. I um I grew up in a family, we didn't do any travel really, but I always felt like I wanted to. Yeah. Um, and then when I got into high school, started going on, you know, the some some trips with some friends and things like that, like kind of out of state stuff. And then when I got to college, I really started getting hopeless wanderlust. I just wanted to spend summer somewhere other than where I was, you know. Yeah. Um and snowboarding really, yeah, getting into the I I played a lot of organized sports. I even played a year of college ball, football, and um, but then I got into snowboarding, and that really kind of brought me um into an appreciation and love of the outdoors um and traveling to to them, gotten surfing a bit and all that other stuff, mountain biking. And so that kind of drove me to Tahoe, which drove me to my first fly fishing experience. And then kind of like I said, towards the beginning, I think it might have been in there already. I'm like, wow, I'm gonna use fly fishing as a vehicle to go see all these other places and have um more diverse life experiences than I did growing up, if you will. Growing up was great, awesome. Yeah, yeah. But there was just something in me that not no one else in my family, and very few people where I grew up for that matter, had the drive to just do all this maniacal travel, if you will, and keep kind of reinventing my year every year. And I guess also a big part of um, as I mentioned, pre-show, um, that year of the nomad um program that I give to clubs, it changes um because I'll find something new that I'm kind of digging. And um, it's been modified over the years, and um I find that. Where I'm at in life now, I'm I'm I I I I don't have as strong a a wanderlust, if you will, as I did when I was 29 or 35. Um, but a big part of that is how big of a pain it it is to travel now. Like airline tra it's just it's just different than pre-2000, let's say. Yeah, you know, or nine, pre-9-11, I'm sorry, 2000. So and it's just delays and you know, uh and so it's not as fun. Um uh so it's in you, it's put you feel home.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:48

This is you feel comfortable when you're doing this. It's absolutely it's just like totally normal. Feel great, and yeah, that's cool, man. Yeah, that's a cool way to live. All right, last question. If you could go back to when you first started fly fishing and give yourself two pieces of advice, one more tactical and one more philosophical. What would you tell yourself to help you progress at fly fishing?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:13

Philosophical, um enjoy the whole process. Enjoy tying every knot, even after you get tangled. Um, enjoy um make sure you're looking around and you are noticing the eagle and the and the and the bird life and the tranquilness of this lake that you're on or your river. It's not just about getting them. I would definitely say that to my earliest self because I was in those places and you know, initially when I saw those fly fishermen in the rear, I'm like, oh look at the artistic, that looks cool. And then I started doing it, and then I suck so bad at it, right? I wasn't able to make those tight loot, you know. I would just wasn't able to do it, and I would get frustrated. Um, and then luckily I was helped. So I think from philosophical um aspect of it, um, yeah, enjoy the whole process, even in those tough early times when you're just trying to get one.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:13

When you're chomping, you're a chomping. Yeah. All right, that's a good reminder, and that's good advice. How about tactical? It doesn't have to be earth-shattering, but just something that you could tell yourself like it would have helped you progress.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:28

Um boy, from a casting standpoint, um, from a spay casting standpoint, um, is visual awareness. You can't just feel the cast work, you need visual awareness and understanding conceptually from a geometrical standpoint of why a cast works. And when you have visual awareness, it helps you with your timing um and it gives you cues as to when to make the movements. That sounds super complex, but it is. It is. Um visual awareness. I thought when I started spay casting, I could just do it because I felt I had a fair amount of mastery of single-hand casting, and I thought I could just grab a two-handed rod and do it. But I I until I set up a video camera and watched myself and had other hired other um instructors to help me with my casting, and that was the one main thing is like visual awareness. Look at your look at your D loop, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:31

I had a uh I have a friend that I ski with that is an instructor, and he's going through some of his certifications or whatever. So sometimes when we ski together, he gives me some pointers and stuff. And great. He he videoed me one time and it was like so eye-opening.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:51

It was illuminating. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:53

Oh, I see exactly what and we I saw it right away. He's like, What do you see? I'm like, I see my you know, I'm not entering into the turn, I'm not carving at the beginning of the turn. You can see I'm like snow plowing at the end. Like I felt like I felt like I was feeling the right way, but it's like when I look at it, like, no, dude, you're you're not you're not carving that the end of that turn. Um I think that's yeah, that's something that is uh I know people don't do that often, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:22

I didn't do it until you And video analysis of a single hand cast, just put it out in the on the lawn or whatever and watch yourself. Yeah, that's good advice, man. It's huge. Um yeah, I think that's a good thing. It's not that hard.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:33

We got these phones, they're super easy to just like take a video and like you could show it to someone that's better than you and be like, what do you think of this? If you couldn't recognize it yourself, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:34:44

Yeah. All right. Right on.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:46

Those are good answers, man. Thank you for uh all the stories, all the advice, all the tips and tricks and techniques, and uh it's been a cool episode. I'm happy we went down this this road in this format. And uh super fun. And um, yeah, thanks for being on the show, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:04

All right, Jason. You take care. Really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:11

Thanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories, and artwork, check out my blog and online gallery at waitouthere.com. If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey, please subscribe and share. Until next time, Wade Out There