WOT: 251 Provo River Tactics with Tim Nation

In this episode we WadeOutThere with Tim Nation, from Kammas Utah.  Tim grew up in Illinois in a family where hunting and fishing was a way of life.  He found himself uniquely drawn to the fly rod, and it soon became his favorite way to catch fish.  It has been his passion ever since.  

Tim spent much of his time as a teenager honing his fly fishing skills and searching for trout in the Ozarks. Looking for a spot he could call home, Tim tried his luck out West.  After multiple western states didn’t seem like the right fit, a last minute stroke of providence, in a Utah trout stream parking lot, solidified his future in fly fishing.   

Tim feels a deep personal connection to the Provo River, and has been fishing and guiding on it for over a decade.  

We discuss what I consider “the big five” fly fishing tactics: fly selection, reading water, presentation, casting, and fighting fish, all on the Provo River. 

Learn More:
Email: Timnation6622@live.com
READ: WADEOUTTHERE | All the Trout Are Bigger Across the River
READ: WADEOUTTHERE | Small Flies, Light Takes, and Lost Fish. It’s Good for You.
READ: WADEOUTTHERE | The Orange Scud Theory

Visit WadeOutThere.com/art for 10% off your first original painting or limited edition print from show host and artist Jason Shemchuk

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

In this episode, we wait out there with Tim Nation from Camus, Utah. Tim grew up in Illinois in a family where hunting and fishing was a way of life. He found himself uniquely drawn to the fly rod and it soon became his favorite way to catch fish. It has been his passion ever since. Tim spent much of his time as a teenager honing his fly fishing skills and searching for trout in the Ozarks. Looking for a spot he could call home, Tim tried his luck out west. After multiple western states didn't seem like the right fit, a last-minute stroke of Providence and a Utah Trout Stream parking lot solidified his future in fly fishing. Tim feels a deep personal connection to the Provo River and has been fishing and guiding on it for over a decade. We discussed what I consider the big five fly fishing tactics fly selection, reading water, presentation, casting, and fighting fish, all on the Provo River. Welcome to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Shempchuk. At Wade Out There, we believe fly fishing is special, but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There. Welcome, Tim. Thanks for being on the Wade Out There podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Yeah, I'm glad you're here too. Dude, I feel like we should be doing this in person, but you're back home in Illinois deer hunting, which is good. You look great, by the way. We're not recording video, but if if people could see this, you got a nice blonde beard. You're looking you're looking good. But we'll maybe we'll do another one from the river in the future, but it's good to see you, man. Yeah, you as well. I think we met the first time like over a year ago at the uh Warrior Risen place. Is that right?

SPEAKER_03 2:11

Yep. Yeah. Doing a little guide in there for the veterans.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Yeah, the veteran volunteer thing. I don't know if I was guiding as much as you were. You were guiding, I was helping. But yeah, that was a good experience. And um I finally got to fish with you the other day, and that was cool too.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Yeah, I was about a year in the making.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Yeah, I'm kind of bummed out because after I went fishing with you, I was like, man, I love fishing with this guy. You just you totally mellow. I don't know, man. Certain people when I fish with them, uh I mean, I'm always enjoying myself usually if I'm out fly fishing, you know. But certain people just have a calming effect on me when I'm out on the river, and you're one of those people. So I just want to start the conversation with a thank you to you for making that day really nice for me.

SPEAKER_03 3:00

Yeah, definitely. It was fun. Very fun.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Yeah, and we had a good fishing day too.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

Oh, yeah, it was phenomenal. I thought one of the cool things was the flows on the river. I see it seemed like they left them pretty high this year, uh, all summer, like 500, and then they dropped it down to like two something, like 250, and that's like my favorite flow. And I'm like, man, I'd like to go fish, but I'd even more like to take somebody fishing.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Yeah. It was perfect timing. And they did drop it again. I was gonna go up there uh last week, and it was just a little too low for what I wanted. So I went out on the South Fork, and that was pretty low too. But I did catch some cutthroat up there, some little cutthroats, and it was fun. Nice, that's good. So, yeah, so one of the things that came up when we were fishing last uh what was three weeks ago or something like that, was your story of how you ended up in Utah. And I've already mentioned you're in Illinois now, so I thought we'd start with kind of the story of how you ended up in Utah. Let's just start with the story of how you got out here.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

Cool, sounds good. So I think what's important to mention is you know, growing up in southern Illinois, it's more of like a bass fishing type of place. And my brother and my dad were both bass fishermen growing up, and for me, growing up, and I've got an older brother, and I was always the weird kid below the dam with a fly rod catching weird spillway fish. And you know, my dad and my brother up there fishing in the boat. So I've always loved fly fishing a little more than like bass fishing and things like that with a spin rod or a baitcaster, like versus using those. I like a fly rod. And so our really like our local water here back in Illinois is more in uh Missouri and on the current river. So I grew up fly fishing in the Ozarks and just like, man, it was magical doing that. And the biggest thing that I loved was taking people down there and showing them how to fly fish, and so it was like I was just naturally meant to be a fishing guide and didn't even know it yet. I just I literally love putting people on fish, and I'm sure you've seen that the other day. You had a hard time getting me to fish. I just like watching people catch fish, you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

I was like, all right, we're taking turns. Well, I made me feel less like uh yeah, made me feel more like we were fishing together. Um but like Alina, your wife was saying, like, no, he loves us, he loves, he loves it. I'm like, I know, I know, I get it. But I I want to see you catch a fish too.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

Yeah, for sure. I get it. So yeah, uh got my love for fly fishing, and uh whenever I was about like 19 or 20, I was pretty free to do whatever I wanted. Like I have a horseshoeing company, like a farrier, I'm a farrier, so I'm pretty free to work like whenever I want to, need to. I can make my own schedule. Yeah, really thankful for that. But I wanted to do something, like I always wanted to live out west somewhere, and uh I tried Montana, I tried Colorado, nothing really stuck. And uh there was there was one day that I was really just praying about what I was supposed to do and where I should go, and was talking to my mom about it, and she ended up getting some kind of graduation thing online, and to go to her graduation, it was in Salt Lake City, and we're like, okay, well, we'll try that. So uh we packed up the whole family and we went to Salt Lake City. This was back in 2017. So my parents drove out there, we flew out there, we stayed for like a week with the family, and then everybody or jumped on a plane and flew back, and I just stayed there in Utah because I just felt like I was called to be in that area. And pretty quickly, actually that same day, or no, the next day, I went to one of the local fly shops in the valley and said, you know, where's the good place to fish around here? Of course they're the Provo, right? Yeah, so I just like decided, well, I'm gonna stay here till I figure out why I'm supposed to be here. So I just slept in the truck and uh met people and fish on the lower provo for a week. It was really amazing because the good lord's timing, I like to say, is never late. It's rarely early, but it's always right on time. And about two weeks of being there, I was uh sitting in a parking lot. The very last day, I called my folks, I was sat in the driver's seat of the truck. I said, I'm gonna head back to Illinois. I said, I had a lot of fun, but I never really found out why I was called to to be here. So I hang up the phone, I'm setting the driver's seat of the truck, just about to put it in and drive and take off. The sun's going down, it's about 9 30 at night in the summer, and a random guy comes up and knocks on the door of my truck. I'm like, okay, so I open the door, I'm like, what's up? He told me his name, he said, I just feel like I need to ask you something. I'm like, okay. He said, Well, I own one of the guide companies and I'm I'm really, really busy, and I just need somebody to help out, help me out tomorrow. Just tag along. And I'm like, Really? He's like, Yeah, I'm like, cool, I'm down. That's awesome. So I called my folks back and I said, You wouldn't believe what just happened. So five minutes, and I would have been out of there forever. So I ended up going and guiding with him the next day, and actually he guided, he we went to a spot on the the Weaver River above Rockport.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Oh wow, okay, up high.

SPEAKER_03 9:00

Yeah, like private stuff. It's like one of the few times I've got to guide private. It was my first trip. What was cool was getting to spend like two weeks here fishing. Is like that's like what I like to say about the Lord's timing, is God'll put allow you to figure something out before He gives you what you need. And you know, I could have seen why, why not sooner? It's like I needed some time to fish.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Yeah, maybe you wouldn't have maybe you would have been like not as in love with Utah if he had showed up like a week earlier and been like, eh, you know, I didn't really figure Death's River and it's not for me, and I'm gonna go back to Illinois and fish the Ozarks and like yeah. I think about that sometimes too. Like uh we had my our son in a school and it wasn't working out and it was just and we're like, oh, this isn't good and it's bad, and it got so bad that we like took him out, put him in a different school, right? And um sometimes I'm grateful that it got as bad as it did because it would made the decision easier, you know what I mean? It was like if I hadn't been quite as bad, if it had just been like okay, even though at the time it felt like suffering, I mean, quote, suffering, right? But it felt bad, like when I look back on it, it was like the best thing that could have happened that hard time for our family, because then it was like, all right, we're definitely, even though there's a lot of uncertainty and we're not sure if this is the right move, and I don't know, this is a big change. That kind of period of time leading up to it, it made it easier for us. And yeah, I do think that there's someone looking out for you trying to help you make those decisions if you pay attention.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

Right, for sure. Yeah, because it was very obvious, clear to me that what I was supposed to do, which I see what you're saying. Like when you have two or three good options, it's hard to choose, you know. You choose one and you think, man, I wonder if I should have chosen the other one. And you know, sometimes all the doors shutting just makes it easier to see the window is open, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Yeah, I do know. I got a couple questions about your story, man. Why well I don't know if I can go all the way back to fly fishing, but can you just briefly talk about when you were little, how fly fishing came to find you and not others? Because it seems like that was really unique for you.

unknown 11:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

I would say going back to the earliest memories would be still at Montauk and on the Kern River, my dad fly fishing, and me just seeing that and just like, man, that's cool. And it was one of those old, like, old school bamboo rods that was like his grandpa's with one of the automatic fishing reels, you know.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Yeah, I had one of those, dude, when I was a kid. Those were cool. I don't know. They it was I don't know what who what brand it was, but my dad had one of those, and I we took it to Montana when I was a kid when I started fly fishing, and yeah, I didn't have my grandfather's bamboo rod at the time, although it existed, but I did have that little trigger.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

Yeah, it's pretty cool. And so I uh got interested in it that way, and then I had a friend that whenever I was probably I don't know, like 13 maybe, he was into fly fishing, and then I seen that I liked that too, so I went and bought like a $15 Martin fly rod from Rule King, which is like a farm store, and yeah, and uh we would set above bluegill beds here in the spring and just whack them. Those bluegills fight hard. I really like learned to cast and things like that, and then my parents got me a like fly fishing fly tying DVD from Cabela's, nice, and uh I watched that like I don't know 50, 60, 70 times, you know. Yeah, and would tie flies while listening to it. And that I learned a lot of really cool stuff like tying and different versions like Euro nymphing versus streamer fishing versus indicator nymphing, you know. I mainly Euro nymphing I learned from that. And then I started Euro Nymphing and In the Ozarks, yeah, and then that was where that was where I got like I'm like wow, I can actually catch fish. But yeah, the biggest thing for me was learning to tie flies and then catch fish on my flies. I thought that was something really cool.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Yeah, and now you get to do it all the time, man.

SPEAKER_03 15:51

Yeah, I know, right? And it it's just amazing to me. If you would would have told me that, you know, back when I was 13, I would have I don't even know. But a little side note of something that's cool is uh through tying flies and things like that, um, down at Montauk, it's called the Montauk Lodge, they have a fly shop in there. And I had this fly pattern and I started tying that for them. And I've got an uncle that he's dead now, but his name was Uncle Wormy. Wormy? And okay I didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Sorry about your uncle dying, but that's a hilarious name.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

Oh, so I named it Uncle Wormy's aunt, so it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

That is cool. Yeah. We'll fish some of that the next time we get together. Oh, yeah, that's a mean little phone pattern. Let me ask you about the Provo then. I assume the Provo is a special place for you because it's kind of where your journey out west landed. You said you tried different places and it didn't feel right, and then you're in Utah and it felt more like where you need to be, and you have this story where, like you said, it's up five minutes and you would have been gone. But can you talk about maybe what makes that river special to you? Is there anything besides kind of like your introduction to it, but kind of the way that it fishes, or is it unique when you have other people come out and fish that river?

SPEAKER_03 17:19

Yeah, I would say I've journaled about this exact same question because there's just been so many things that's happened on the Provo River. Like I found my career on it, I got baptized in it, I took my wife on the first date there, and uh I got engaged to her there, you know? Yeah, so it does hold a lot of both the the upper, middle, and lower all sections are just really special to me. That was where I lived for that first week, was on the lower, you know. So yeah, it's just a special place. And that was where I learned how to fish the Pro River bounce rig, which was what you know we fished last time, and that was something that you know I've never heard of that or seen that anywhere. So that was just like a game changer for catching fish, mainly for guiding people on to fish, because it's just an easier way to cast. And there's a lot of like forgiveness in it where your mends don't have to be perfect. I've learned as as a guide, you can, or just a fisherman, but whenever I'm guiding, like if somebody's not making good drifts, I can add some weight and it's gonna get them a better drift just by it's kind of like when you're rowing a drift boat, you can make somebody's drift a little better, you know?

SPEAKER_01 18:40

I I know what you're talking about. I wouldn't say I'm there yet, but I'm working hard. I got a drift boat. Well, gosh, it's been about a year now, but it's one of the things that I like most about having a drift boat, is like it's a whole new skill set, like trying to put the boat in a place that helps people catch fish. I really, really enjoy it. I really do.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

But I still struggle with like like with guiding, it's too chaotic for me. Like there's too much going on, you know. And also I'm like, as a weight fisherman, I'm like, man, I want to jump out and fish that run, you know, stand there for a while.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Yeah, I I feel that. But you know what I do is I just stop. I stop the boat, and then my brother is like, dude, we gotta go. Come on. I'm the guy that like makes everybody like with you know, the last two miles is like forward rowing down the river because we stop too much. That's kind of the way that my drift boat day goes. But I go by myself too, and then I no big deal, then I don't have to worry, and I'll just row down to a spot that I like and fish there, and row down to another spot and fish there, and I really like that about having a drift boat too.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

You do your shuttle by yourself?

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Uh I pay someone. Yeah. I pay somebody, which isn't too bad, depending on which section I'm going to. Yeah. Alright. Let's talk a couple more things about the Provo. You talked about all these memories that you have, and do you remember a fish or maybe one that got away? Or it could be one that you caught that left a special memory in your in your brain. On the provo or just in general? I mean, it could be in general.

SPEAKER_03 20:21

I'm looking for the provo, but uh Well your fish that you jumped, one of those last ones. That big sucker. We die.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Yeah, that one kind of uh yeah, because we caught that nice brown before that, too. And then that one was bigger. I mean, it was noticeably bigger, I thought, but I knew if I caught that fish in there, it was gonna be tough. But uh, I just I don't know. I did my best. I asked you at the time, what could I have done different, Tim? And I don't know, maybe let it go down past that like fast water and like just accept, like, hey, am I gonna have to land a big fish downstream? That's something I think about a lot is like if I catch a big fish here, if I catch a regular fish, I'll be alright. But what if I catch a big fish and you know, having to think ahead. I don't know if you think about that.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

Oh yeah, for sure. Definitely, especially with clients. There's places on the river that I'm like, we could hook them here, but we ain't gonna land them. Unless the water's a little bit more murky or something, you can throw a little heavier line. But that was your issue was you needed to give them the beans, but you couldn't because you had six X line on them. Yeah. That was the problem. Or, like you said, accept it and go down with them.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah. I think I would have done that in hindsight, but you know, it's all hindsight. Who knows if that would have worked though? Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:51

The fish that stuck in my mind, like one that is just like I've thought of often, was it actually takes place in Kentucky. All right. So we had this idea, we're like, let's go carp fishing with fly rods, right? Okay. So we're in the muddy flats. We're hoping to catch like some, you know, nice, like, I don't know, five-pound buffaloes or like eight-pound or whatever. So we're paddling around, and we tied up these uh, they're called like conkers or something like that. It's like a carp zonker. It's like a little streamer thing. And you could see them going through the brush for worms and crap. I mean, it was they were in there thick. So I cast my fly rod out. I'm setting the kayak, it's only a couple feet deep, real muddy water, and I see my line take off. Okay, so I I set it a little bit because this is a five-weight fly rod with like six-pound test. So that's why I was saying hopefully catch a little buffalo, nothing too. And so my drag starts screaming, and my buddy starts videoing, that's how I know how much time from start to end this took. Because we look back on the video. Uh, this fish takes off. So he's like, here, tie your kayak to my kayak. So he starts following this fish, and I'm trying to gain all my backing back, and amazed at this six-pound line ain't breaking. This Cabela's five-weight fly rods holding together. And uh, which I ain't knocking them, them suckers got me going for a long time. And uh, there was this boat that came up to us about 30 minutes into the fight. Said, What the heck you guys doing? We're fighting the fish. I was like, Really? Okay, so they stayed with us the whole time, following us around with a trolling motor. And then uh about like four hours into the fight, I finally make it to the bank with this fish. And he's still taking me my backing. I'm reeling back up, takes me my backing, rolling back up. There's like 30 people on the bank with me watching, and uh it ends up being like a a grass carp that's like the size of my kayak. And I walk this thing for five and a half hours with uh shorts on. My legs were so burnt. I couldn't walk on them for like five days, like no joke. Did you see it?

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Did you see this fish?

SPEAKER_03 24:24

I've seen it many a times.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

And it broke off.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Right at the end?

SPEAKER_03 24:31

It did, yeah. It did. Broke off or spit the hook. It broke off. Long uh paddle back to the truck. Yeah. Yeah, that was uh that comes in handy when guiding, once again. Whenever people like they get disappointed because they fought a fish for like four minutes. I'm like, let me tell you a story.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Yeah. No, that's definitely, man, that's a long fight. Do you guys carp fish at all out here?

SPEAKER_03 24:59

Yeah, on Utah Lake a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Yeah, I've heard of Utah Lake being a place for that.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

Oh, it can be phenomenal. I haven't got too much into it, but some of my buddies do. You know. I mean, I understand people are like, what do you want to go catch a carp for? It's like, honestly, it's like fishing for giant bone fish. I mean, you're sight fishing.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

That's what everyone says. It's supposed to be super fun.

SPEAKER_03 25:21

You know, get a, you know, at least like a seven-weight, eight-weight rod, just lean back.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Yeah. It's supposed to be good for like helping you, you know, prepare for casting and just kind of the whole salt water experience, you know. Yeah. Better than nothing, I guess. Have you had any unique experiences or lessons learned recently on the Provo that was like either a new lesson learned or something that you relearned, you know, like, oh man, I know better than to do that, or something that you're like, oh, geez, this works really good.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

Yeah. I think that one of the lessons that I learned pretty darn often there is that timing is everything with fish in that river, like as a guide, you're zero, one day you're a hero. Like, I mean, and I've seen that through the years having returned clients. Like, one of the first times that uh I started guiding for this guy, and then I called him one day whenever I had my first return client. And he said, What happened on the last trip? I said, We caught a 20-inch brown on a like a size 22 dry fly. And he's like, You gonna do that again? I said, I hope so. So I I've just learned that, like, I mean, you can definitely get to where you can predict what's gonna happen most days, and you know, we're catching fish every day. I mean, it's extremely rare not to catch fish, right? And that that ain't bragging, that's just the truth. I mean, we're getting paid to put people on fish, you know. But uh, it's just like certain months, like during the winter, you can't buy a fish, and then right after that, like rolling into like late February, March, April, it's just like, oh my gosh, you're catching the crap out of them. And you know, even like more detail is like certain times of the day where you can't buy a fish in the morning and then or like late morning, you're just wearing them out. So just learning to hit those times, or like if I'm just there fun fishing with a friend, like be like, okay, if they're not biting, let's be patient, because they will. And I think that river's taught me that more than anything, because you know, whenever you stand in a hole and catch so many fish and then try it again later, or whatever, it doesn't work, it's like, okay, something's up here, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Yeah, I know. It's like the hot fly is the hot fly until it's not, right? You can go into the fly shop and be like, what fly is is good, and they put a fly in your hand and it doesn't work, or maybe it's lights out, it's lights out, but I mean, no flies lights out every day, all day, all year long, right? So I think sometimes people forget that, that like things are always changing, myself included, and that not just things are changing, but conditions are changing, where the fish are changing, just all that. And it's just so easy for me to get comfortable with like a spot that I like or a fly that I like. And as soon as I start doing that, I find those changes, you know, I'm not gonna catch a fish because they work good sometimes, but not all the time. That's why I think exploring is really good because even just sometimes the flows on one section or one river or one area are just not as good as another. And if you don't spread yourself out and try and explore new places, as an angler, I think you set yourself up for you're kind of limited, you know. That's why when we were fishing, we were deciding where to fish, you were like, Well, I've mostly fished the provo, so let's go fish the weaver. I'm like, Well, I've mostly fished the weaver, so let's go fish the provo.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

I'm glad with the decision that was.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Yeah, it was good, but it's just kind of I think that it's cool to I think that not just that it's cool, but I think that it helps me like when I force myself to go do new things or try new things. And I think that for a lot of people it's just the fear of like, well, if I try that new I don't know if it'll work. And so I'm gonna stick with what works because I just want to catch fish so bad and you have to kind of like say, well, I might not catch fish in the short term, but in the long term, I'm kind of making myself more versatile, more flexible.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

Well, I I tell you what, like, even harder doing that is doing it while guiding. And that's just kind of how my brain works, at least right now, this time of my life, is the guide brain. But like I get more excited going somewhere that I haven't guided very much.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

Kind of winging it, you know? That's so fun. When instead of just going to like the same few spots all the time that you know you're gonna catch fish.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Sure, because you've been there for 10 years now, probably, right? And you're on the water all the time, which is good. That's why you're guiding, like you got the knowledge in your brain, and you should have that, but it's a different story when you're on a fresh new place and you kind of have to just start over.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

I want to ask you about some tactics on the water. I thought I would kind of go through these are the big five. All right. So this is the first kind of section I've done like this, and I've got to give a shout out to Daniel Bragg. I had him on the podcast a while back, and he's a guide on the Madison, and one of the things he told me that really stuck with me, it may sound obvious, but I think that it's important when I think about fly fishing and what to do is the big five like skill sets in fly fishing. And let me know if you think I'm missing one, but we're gonna talk about fly selection, reading water, casting, presentation, and fighting fish. Those are kind of like the five things that when I think I want to break down fly fishing into five categories, those are the categories. So I thought I'd go through those with you and uh just get your take on some of your thoughts on fly selection. We'll start with that. What's something that you've changed your mind on in fly selection? Where like you were one way before and now like nah, I don't think that anymore. Is there anything like that?

SPEAKER_03 31:55

Oh yeah. Um when in doubt goes small. Okay, elephants eat peanuts. Um I like that. That's more of like a tarpon fisherman. That's kind of one of their sayings, but I forget jump fishing too. But I've learned that like this is kind of weird, but like your fly is one of the least important things out of all of those things you named, out of the big five, I believe. I think it's more well, I'm sure we'll get more into it, but I think the big thing, like I said, is going small. If we're talking about trout fishing, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Let's stick with trout fishing and Utah.

SPEAKER_03 32:35

Yeah. And I think that even what we've learned about like night fishing with mice or frogs, little mice, little frogs, little streamers, they like those. I know it's cool though to try just a big old what we call a chicken, just a big old streamer and see a trout eat that, but it's kind of disappointing when you catch a trout that's about the size of your streamer. You know, you just think you're gonna go out there and catch a but you'll find out that that what I've experienced is that that 24 inch brown trout is still gonna eat a little streamer if you're throwing streamers, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Do you think that's because I mean because I know some people love throwing bigger streamers to bigger fish, and it depends on the water probably, but do you think that that's because big fish are eating small flies more often? Like if you had to run the numbers, right? How much of a big fish's diet is big things versus small things? Because they'll still eat a big thing, which is why people kind of do that, right? But your odds of getting a bigger fish on a smaller flies are higher because they're still that's like more of a main food source for them. I don't know if that's true, but I I assume like I don't know. I I definitely catch big fish on small flies too, so I know they're eating them sometimes, but I don't fish enough giant flies to know like for me personally, is the ratio bigger.

SPEAKER_03 34:05

I think that a big thing about all this is uh what kind of pressure is going on on the river. Like, for example, uh not too long ago, I don't think really many people moused at night, throw mice flies at night. And now I think fish have gotten a little bit more used to that. They're not as near as because I've seen some pictures of some guys that's caught some mega studs on the middle provo at night. I think they would be more willing if there was less pressure, but on you know, eating bigger flies and things like that. But I just think that that those fish, like the middle, lower provo, them fish just like little flies. And and I think that they do eat more little stuff more often rather than one big meal. Yeah. I think maybe once you get into that over 24 plus inch fish, they feed more at night because they know that they're not gonna get caught near as much. And they eat more big stuff, but I think that like that good like 16 to 20 inch fish, I think they're still eating a lot of the little flies that we're throwing, you know. I think that's why we're able to catch those fish.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. What else about fly selection? Uh we talked about dry flies earlier as a way that you like to fish. Is there anything in particular about dry fly fishing and fly selection that you kind of uh pass along to people as a good technique?

SPEAKER_03 35:37

Yeah. It just varies a lot on where you're fishing, but I think with dry fly fishing is for really picky trout is get your line out of there, like get a small line. Like if you're throwing 6x, a lot of times go down to seven. That's what I've found. And also like running a fluorocarbon tippet that'll actually sink just a little instead of set on top for them to see can help.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Um would you run a nylon leader to fluoro tippet?

SPEAKER_03 36:13

Just a little short fluoro tippet. Yeah. What I've found on like the middle is once again, timing's everything. You can have hatches there that are absolutely best hatches I've ever fished anywhere. But you gotta hit the right time. And the other thing that I've found is gink your flies or aquill them, I think what's called. Yeah. And dry shake them. Okay. Double up and double up on often, like really often.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Well, especially for the small flies. You know, that's that's always a trouble for me, is like, okay, I'm sold on the small flies. Like, I buy that because I just have more luck. It depends on the water though. I mean, it really does. We're talking about the Provo, so you know, it's more pressured, clear water a lot of the time. And yeah, I wouldn't not go down in tippet size if I thought it would help me catch fish. Yeah. I mean, if you can't catch the fish, then it doesn't really matter if you like a bigger fly or you like a heavier tippet, like, sorry, Jason, it's not gonna work for you. So I think that sometimes I need to remember to do that as well. Like, I gotta meet the fish on the fish's terms, not like what I like for me. Because I'm like a guy that would be like, well, I'd really like to stick with 5x because if I do catch a big fish, I want to be able to have more confidence in landing it, right? But if I never get the opportunity, then what you know. But yeah, so with the small flies, I guess I think it's that's a really good point because they they want to go under pretty quick, you know.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

Yeah. Well, I agree too, like, if I have somebody that's fishing with me and I'm showing them and I can get away with stronger tippet, whether it's a nymph rig or a dry fly, I'm gonna go with stronger and less fish if they're bound to break them off, because I hate like if somebody keeps breaking off fish or you get stuck and you can't get your snags out, yeah. I would rather catch less fish. That's kind of something that I've always done with guiding, is like I'm not worried about catching a ton of fish, you know. Yeah, I do want to catch a decent amount, but you know, I'll definitely go to the stronger tippet size if I can. That's why I'd say that fluorocarbon, you know, 7x is only 12 inches maybe. Yeah, yeah. You know, not a long tippet. And then keeping that sucker dry, that's very important.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

I found with those well, those are good and a little Go ahead, Sega.

SPEAKER_03 38:51

A little bit longer leader, I prefer with a dry fly. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

How about reading water? What's been kind of one of the bigger unlocks for you with reading water? And, you know, I don't know if it's the same or different. I I grew up kind of learning how to read water on western streams, and I don't know what the transition when I went to fish in the Ozarks when I lived in Missouri, it was a lot of the same stuff. I didn't really find like a real huge difference in reading trout water between Montana and southern Missouri, northern Arkansas. But is there something that you see that maybe is an unlock for people when you start opening their eyes to things or showing them with reading water?

SPEAKER_03 39:38

This is a debate that we've had for a while of where are the bigger fish at in in runs. You know, because most people that have fished just a little bit of time can look at a run and say there's there's gonna be fish there. That's where you're gonna catch fish. Right? It's not too difficult to learn how to read water, but trying to learn to read water to where there's like bigger fish, you know? I that's something that I've kind of tried to learn and work on. And what I've found out is once again, it varies from day to day, you know. I don't know if I've really consistently caught, you know, bigger fish in certain places, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Is there something about when you see water now where you look for different things, or do you want to just change topics on this one? Because I think that's that's true. There's certain places where I'll be like, okay, maybe there's fish in there, but I don't think there's gonna be as much big fish or deeper water or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 40:39

Well, I've found those places where like you're kind of like fish in the nursery. There's a ton of like little bitty fish in there, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

And then there's other places Or you're just catching a lot of little fish and you're like, okay, this is fun, but I kind of wanna what can I do to change this? A lot of times it's water type.

SPEAKER_03 41:00

It's something that I've learned that it changes throughout the year through the season changes. But I would say one thing that that I've learned is fishing, say a river that's controlled by a dam, like the middle and the lower provo, uh, fishing up closer, fish in that colder water compared to fishing down farther can produce you know bigger fish more consistently for me, depending on the time of year, you know. Yeah. Like getting away from the cold water during the cold days, you know, fish at more downstream, I've found that I've gotten better fish or you know, on hotter days going up closer to the dam.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

Yeah, I think that's a really good point, man. When I think about reading water, and even when I asked the question, I was thinking more about like, what am I looking for? But I think if you approach reading water, like you're saying, with more like which section of the river or what temperature of the water, that's all part of reading water too, right? If you can say even day to day or week to week, the temperatures are different, that's gonna change the way that you know, where the fish might even be, you know, where if it's really warm, they'd be in riffly water, or if it's cool, they'd be in deeper water. And that's something that I'm just in the last few years kind of like really bringing more into my cross-track.

SPEAKER_03 42:26

Yeah. And also part of reading the Pro Votes for me is watching tide charts or or uh flow charts. Yeah. And learning because you spend enough time somewhere, you know, you're like, this number, I'll be able to fish this rock. You're like, you know exactly where all those are. So also that's very important of where the river's at. And honestly, like during the spring, that muddy runoff where I've seen the river, you know, over 2,000. I like that stuff. I find that the big fish dominate during that high water and fish in like little eddies that aren't there typically with streamers and sow bugs and junk food.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

Yeah. Sow bugs. I I'm a big sow bug guy now. The the Provo made me a sow bug guy.

SPEAKER_03 43:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

That's what we was catching them on the other day, too.

SPEAKER_03 43:25

Me and you.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

Yeah, the soil bug or the Ray Charles, or I I like that fly. I can tie it and I seem to do well on it. And I never fished it. I mean, I probably tied it on a couple times in my life until I went and fished a uh orange scud on the Provo, the lower provo, when I was with my dad, and that was I just had one of the best days of fishing in my life, and it got into nighttime, and I was just kept fit catching fish and catching fish. And then from then on, I was a believer. The orange scud. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:58

I wrote a whole yeah, it's interesting because we like to tie just a regular sow bug but with an orange head. Yeah. Like that orange too.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

All right. How about casting when we're talking about dry fly fishing? Is there any techniques that you think are especially important for casting on the Provo or just in general with dry flies?

SPEAKER_03 44:19

I think that I these are all really good points because I keep saying I think that's the most important one because that's also a very important one.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

Uh oh, you mean the five that we're going through the big five?

SPEAKER_03 44:31

Yeah, all of them are very good.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Um, Daniel's point was that the hardest one or the easiest one is casting because that's the thing that you can practice, right? You can't for sure you can't practice like presentation or fighting fish really unless you're doing it.

SPEAKER_03 44:50

Yeah, so for me, like I said, that's why I like the bounce rig a lot with guiding, so I can just here, throw this. Yeah, there's definitely a wrong way to do it. You gotta do it right, but it's pretty easy to pick up. Sure. But I would say on a good hatch, it's even easier to teach somebody to catch fish on a dry fly. If you can get them to see the dry fly or listen to you and say, hey, you've got a fish set up. So I would say the biggest thing that I've learned is, and you've probably heard this pretty often from other people, is don't try to throw big long laser beams. Like you don't need to do that, right? And that's something that's really common with guiding somebody that's like, oh, I fly fish all the time, give me that sucker. He's gonna strip out a bunch of line. What I've found on the pro is these fish will eat a couple feet in front of you. And just doing some like small little roll cast, like I said, with that longer tippet, you know, that'll get you out to the middle of the stream, and you only got, I don't know, ten feet of line out, maybe, maybe like six feet of line, and that's all you gotta fish, you know. Yeah. Yeah. What I found is important with that is what is important is getting a good drift compared to getting a good cast. Because you know, you can throw your mayfly out there a long ways. But immediately you're going to get that C shape that's going to drag your fly. And so you're not going to catch anything like that. Unless you're fishing caddis, they kind of like that swing.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Depends, yeah. I know what you're talking about. Depends how hungry they are and time of year. Yeah. I mean, that's super fun when you're like, oh man, that moment when you're like, ah, dang it, that's a bad oh, dude, fish. You know, you're right about to pick up and mend because it looks like crap, and then like here comes a fish. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So let's let's talk about that because now we're talking about casting versus presentation. And this is kind of like a I don't know if it's not a sore spot for me. I'm definitely a believer in practicing casting and being a good caster and the importance of casting and all that. But like when people say like what's the difference, like what's more important, fly selection or presentation. Almost everybody will say presentation. I would say presentation until it's not. And how do you know when it's not? You know it when you know it, right? You know it when you put on the orange scud and you're like, okay, it's definitely the fly. Like I didn't do anything, I didn't get any better. I'm just crushing fish now with this fly, and it's awesome. I feel the same way with casting and presentation. And I'll probably get a lot of uh comments about this, but like, dude, yes, casting's important, but I think presentation is more important. And I think you can solve a lot of presentation problems with casting, especially if you're efficient and good. But putting yourself in the right position so that your cast has a good presentation, whether that's moving up or downstream or how you cast the fish, I think that that matters a lot. And maybe that's more of a beginner type thing of an approach, but they're kind of the same. Like presentation and casting, they it muddies the waters a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 48:11

Yeah. Well, I I think the biggest thing with that is like don't try to cast so far. But instead of pulling more line off your reel, take a step out, take two steps out. And and also stop going straight for the middle of the river for your first cast. Catch the fish that are on your side of the bank first. I guess something that drives me crazy is we'll cross the river. And then somebody will wait out to the middle of the river and fish the other side that we just crossed.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

All the oh dude, I wrote a blog post about this.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

I must said it to you. It's called All the Good Fish Are on the Other Side of the River or something like that. And it's just like that. It's like, oh, it looks so good over there, and then like I'm just gonna cross over there so I can fish over there, and then it looks so good on the other side, and you're like, I was just over there. I don't know what that is.

SPEAKER_03 49:01

Yeah, but I think I think moving your your person rather than casting more line because those fish on the pro bowl aren't very spooky at all, you know, they'll they'll right below you and eat the stuff that you're kicking up. So yeah, don't try to throw a bunch of lines because it's too hard to manage. And even if you can mend really well, you know, if you cast all the way directly straight across the river, you're instantly throwing mends as hard as you can. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

I was up there just after we fished, I went back up. I think I told you I went back up and I fished, uh walked a lot further downstream and fished up to where we were fishing, and most of the fish that I caught were it's exactly what you said. I was being cognizant of like casting a section from bottom to top, you know, kind of like moving up through it, not going to the good water right away. But yeah, when I had to wait out further and hold more of my line off the water and just almost kind of like do a almost like a tight line to my fly, kind of, you know. I don't know. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 50:17

And that don't take much longer to do that.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Yeah. Yeah. And if you put yourself in the right spot, I think it like you said, you're not gonna spook as many fish as you think. I don't think. It kind of depends on where you're fishing and yeah. Depends on how far out, how much pressure, but certainly that's something I think is useful for me.

unknown 50:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

Alright. Last one. Ready? Fighting fish. As you view what are some of the things that you tell people, um, you know, these are my basic cookie cutter kind of like rules for fighting fish, if you have any, or something like A, B, and C like these are the things I want you to focus on.

SPEAKER_03 51:02

Yeah. Uh this is probably what everybody will say, I would think, but during my like demo, the first thing that I teach people before I teach them anything about casting, anything about running adrift, any of that, is I will show them what to do when you get a fish. Because that's what people do is with the adrenaline, that all goes out the window, you know. So I'll I will show people this many times because this is why people lose fish really often, is set okay, there's there's a few different things. Set your hook downstream. I find that that hooks fish better because especially with the bounce rig, but even other rigs as well, because the fish are faced upstream.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

What about with dry fly fishing? Do you find it's more a vertical or still same set downstream if you can?

SPEAKER_03 51:57

I think vertical is totally fine, but downstream I think it's better as well. But vertical is fine too. So you set the hook downstream and then uh always teach people to get your rod tip up. And what I do is I teach a little bit extra. Like instead of straight up, go back just a little. Because typically when somebody does that, that means they'll hit straight up. If you tell them to go straight up, they're usually pointing down a little, you know.

SPEAKER_02 52:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 52:25

Um, I found that was something like through this year's guide season I really worked on is set is showing people this is straight up, this is not straight up. And I find that like once that fish gives up at the very end, with that rod tip kind of back a little, it kind of like once your rod tip straightens up, it slingshots the fish in to the net, you know. It kind of does that last little part for you.

SPEAKER_01 52:50

Um so you're talking about we people can't see your hand, but you're talking about straight up, meaning like pushing the butt of the rod forward so the tip of the rod comes back over your shoulder. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 53:00

Yeah. Yeah. Kind of the classic painting that people do of landing a fish by yourself, you know? Because a lot of times whenever you are alone, your arm goes back behind you, right? And you reach out. And so it's that that same kind of get it behind you. I find land a lot more fish like that. And then don't touch your reel. Don't touch it. Don't touch your reel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

Well, I mean, you've got to touch it to real, right?

SPEAKER_03 53:29

So Yeah, that's what I teach people is and they're like, well, when do I touch it? I say, just don't touch it. I'll tell you when, as of right now, when you ain't touching the reel, like at all. Don't get some line up to cast farther. Don't touch it to reel in a fish. Just don't touch it. Because what people tend to do is they hook a fish and they think, well, let's reel it in. Right. But that that drag's going, so they're just like, oh crap, I gotta stop it, you know. Yeah. So I think the biggest thing is don't touch the reel until you learn, you know, when to reel. Once you get more experienced, it's you know, you you get that figured out pretty easy. But you know, and then there's a difference in if you've got a drag on your reel or you're just using your palm, you know. Sure. But like I said, I think a lot through a guide brain. So those are my three three things. But I would say personally, and also I teach people get them on the reel rather than strip them in. I feel like we net a lot more fish by doing that, letting the the reel do the job, you know.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

You know what? I've thought about this a lot and I've gone back and forth. I want to know what your opinion is, but I've been like uh get it on the reel as soon as possible, and then or I've always liked getting it on the reel. I don't like fighting a fish with just the my hands because I'm just not as good at knowing when that fish is gonna turn and run and if I'm holding it. Like, I mean, that's just to me, I'm not good enough to do that right now. So I don't know if that's you know, I don't think that that's easy for anyone to really do, but so I like to have it on the reel. But how I get it on the reel has changed a little bit. I think I used to be more like I would kind of like pick a time where I thought the fish was kind of like in a lull, and then I would hold the line and reel in the slack, and then like kind of try and time that that bites me a lot. Now I'm more likely to let the fish take the line out instead of me reeling it in, which goes along your like don't touch the reel kind of thing. Like, let the fish get the line out. But the problem with that is now maybe I have more line out than I want, which the solution to that is don't have so much slack out when you're fishing. And I that has been something that oddly has helped me with fighting fish more than a lot of things in the last couple years, is like really not paying attention to how much line I have out, and it's more important than I than I thought in the past. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_03 56:11

Yeah, and I think there's also the point of uh recognizing you know, do you hold on to your fly line? Which I think most fly fishermen do with their you know pointer finger. But that's another thing is I don't like to teach that to beginners because that's another step that they forget when they hook a fish. Your brain locks up, you just start you just tighten up and you hang on. And I say, let go of that line, you know. And then so they start realizing, no, no, real. Let go of that chill. Just chill, you know.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

No, that's important that that chill out because uh, you know, you gotta kind of see what the fish is doing and kind of react to the fish a little bit, you know, and then it helps you make a decision, you know. It's like we used to do uh this is so a lot of my listeners know I used to fly airplanes, but we would do air-to-air stuff, and you start a lot of the engagements when you practice with the bandit behind you and call the fights on, and and a lot of times people would just go straight into their brake turn and try and turn their tail away from the the bandit. But if they're not looking at the bandit, like you don't know what he's doing, you could just be set. I mean, that's the best situation 90% of the time is to go into that brake turn. But if you don't keep your eyes on the bandit, then you don't know. Maybe he's not driving to your turn circle, he's just pointing at you the whole time and gunning you. And he's doing something unexpected. My point of that is just when I find that when I'm fighting fish, I like to give the fish an opportunity to just show me what are you gonna do? If I just make an assumption and start reeling or putting him doing something without knowing what he's doing, like I find that I'm in trouble.

SPEAKER_03 58:02

Yeah. Ray. Yeah, and like with the with the fighter jet, maybe let him do something that makes up for where you've got to do less. You know, there's there's so many times. Let them make the mistake, and then you exactly. I I think that letting the fish take the line. Um another thing that I've learned um is instead of reeling, I like to I don't know how to explain this without showing up, but smack my reel. Yeah. And that gets a lot of line in real quick. And sometimes it takes one good hit and you're tight, you know. Or we just go back to the old automatic reels, like we was talking about, you know.

SPEAKER_01 58:42

Yeah, maybe we should start uh put some automatic reels on the lineup for the uh for the business. Or but yeah, those were kind of cool for that reason. I think that is something that a lot of reels have that. Not all reels have that, and I have one reel that I can do that with, and it is kind of cool to be able to do that. It's not my cross check as much as I need it to be, but it is a good way to get line in quick.

SPEAKER_03 59:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

Right. All right.

SPEAKER_03 59:10

Those are some questions though. Those are all very I don't know how to like pick which one be the most important, you know.

SPEAKER_01 59:18

I think they're all important. I mean, it's kind of depends on which thing is giving you trouble, right? If fly selection is giving you trouble, then that's the most important thing that day, or maybe you're losing big fish because you don't you're not fighting them right, and then that's the most important thing, or you're not getting any fish on. So I think they're all important. I do think that I mean for me, I think the hardest thing is fighting big fish. Like I almost want to write an article about this, but because you only get the opportunity to really practice it when you catch a big fish. And it's hard to just catch big fish all the time. And if you're a beginner, you know, you have to go through this phase, and I'm not saying I'm out of the phase or whatever, but there's a period of time where like you catch a big fish and your eyes are just sausters, and you're like, uh, and you don't have any practice, you know, and so only by fishing a long time can you actually practice that because you're not just able to line up big fish. I mean, maybe you could practice with bass, you know, you could practice kind of like what the feel of moving your rod around or some of the things we were talking about with getting the line on the reel and things. That might be a way to help. But when it comes to trout, you know, I mean we gotta go car fishing.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:36

You gotta go do it. Gotta fight big ones.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

Uh-huh. That'll help us big cat catch big fish. All right. Um I want to ask you some more philosophical questions now, Tim. All right. All right. I'm an artist, and so uh one of the things that I think about a lot with fly fishing is art and how it inspires me and how I find art in it. And one of the things I want to start asking guests is how they see fly fishing and art, the relationship between the two, or if there is one, and you strike me as a a very thoughtful person. You mentioned your journaling and and things like that. And I'm I wonder, do you see maybe you can kind of talk to me about talk to me a little bit about what do you think what what's your definition of art and do you see a space for art in fly fishing or fly fishing in art?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:33

Man, I I think that uh that's a difficult question for me, really. Is I see what you're saying. Like I am a deep thinker and I journal a lot. I journal literally every day, and and so I just like it's so hard for me to wrap it up into um I think the thing that uh makes it so magical and so artful. Is that a word? I don't know. To me, artistic is is uh the joy that it can bring people, I think is what makes it really awesome for me is seeing how much that people love it, you know, and something about fly fishing that is is very different. It's kind of like you know, shooting a traditional boat compared to you know a crossbow or something. Uh there's just something about it that I just I don't know how to put that to words. You have to ask me that again on the next one, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:38

We'll definitely have a next one. I mean, I think I get what you're saying. It sounds like you're talking about the joy and the emotions that it brings you. And it's something that you can get from art too, right? One person can look at it and be moved, and one person can not. Just like not everyone is like in love with fly fishing, right? I think that's a really good kind of comparison, actually, because someone might go fly fishing and not see or feel the same thing that another person would feel. Just like if I look at a painting that really moves me, another person might look at it and it might not move them.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:19

Yeah. But what you're explaining is what I got hooked to. And I can't I don't know how to put that to words. This just like like fly fishing was such a calling. I don't know. It's very strange.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:33

But you know it when you feel it, right? You know it when you see it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:37

You're like, yeah, that is I guess taking somebody that's never fly fished or they have a few times and showing them that and them getting it, getting what we're saying, that that art part of it, yeah, um, is what m brings me so much joy, you know. And that doesn't mean that they're catching a bunch of fish either. That might be with the guy that didn't catch any fish, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:00

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:01

I'm like, he just gets it. He gets that uh that weird thing that I can't explain.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:07

No, I I think your point is well taken. Like I think you actually explained it pretty well. Yeah. And uh it's one of the things that is special for me about fishing too, is kind of the relationship you build with people when you're fishing and just the feeling you have when you're just chilled out on the river, you know. And like I said at the beginning, you're a person that is well suited to put people in that space. And if somebody is gonna have those feelings, there there's no reason why they wouldn't have them with you on the river, because you really put people at ease, at least put me at ease and uh really enjoyed it. So uh once again, thanks for that experience. All right. I think I'm gonna start wrapping it up, Tim. Before I do, I think that your point is actually well taken and it does make sense to me. It's something that you can't explain, just like a lot of times art is something that you can't explain. You know, it's just this feeling you have when you look at a piece of work, uh piece of art, it's a similar kind of feeling that that some people get when they experience fly fishing, you know, it's unexplainable emotion that comes from something. Um I guess the difference for me is like art is usually it's man-made, right? Somebody made that art, and a lot of times fly fishing, although it's people interacting in nature, it's really coming from nature. Um I guess that's the feeling that we're trying to get when we're building art sometimes. All right, Tim. I want to have a second episode because there's a lot more stuff that I want to talk to you about. We talked about that before the show, but I think we need to start wrapping it up before I do. How can people find out more about you? Maybe schedule a guided trip or kind of um follow you along in your journey, or or if there's anything that you're excited about that you want to tell people about.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:54

I would say that um that's all changing as of pretty recently. Like, I'm a pretty low-key guy, like I don't have any social media, I don't have I don't have anything. And uh so it's really just just my phone number or email. Gonna have to get social media stuff because this is pretty cool. I'm excited about this. I needed a way to store my fly rods in in my truck where I could use them, have them rigged up whenever I'm ready to use them, and but they just kind of like live in my truck, you know. And there's always been a way to break a rod down to four pieces, reel all your lineup, and put it away in one of those cases. But like as a guide, I need them ready all the time. Um, but I also shoe horses out of my truck as well, so you know, I need them completely out of the way and safe. So uh I've actually got a patent pending on a product where they're uh it's a magnetic system, like uh fly rod holders that go on the insides of your trucks that set on your fender well, uh, where they can be inside under your cap locked away. Um and so I'm that's something that we're working on and producing, and hopefully gonna get those into like the fly fishing shows and things like that, yeah, this uh this winter.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:20

Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:21

Um, so that would be a way that you could find us is at those shows, but also we're working on the thing that we're like stuck on is like what to call them and things like that. Like I actually have have um quite a few of them made up and ready to sell, but um just I guess waiting on like the right time to launch this idea because it's been something that I've used my whole guide career and something that's helped me out tremendously. And um it's kind of like I've got to test the product without having to, you know, with using it every day. It's just it's proved to me how much how helpful it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:01

Um Yeah, I love the product, dude. I mean, I got one in my truck and it's awesome. So I'm excited for you and excited for you to get it out publicly and website and all that is still to come. But if somebody was interested in like Like a new way for rod storage and they want to get a hold of you, could they reach out via email? Could we share that?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:20

Or yeah, that'd be great. I would love that. Uh love to give you that. So it's Tim Nation. No caps or spaces 6622 at live.com.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:36

Okay. Tim Nation6622 at live.com. So people can reach out to you if they are interested in fly store fly rod storage in the bed of their truck. And uh what I like about it is I don't have to, you know, it fits on the inside of my truck. I can put the cover down, it's in there, and you know, I don't have to keep it in the cab, and I don't have to put a uh a topper on my truck or um anything else. It just sits on the side there with the magnets, and that's pretty awesome. It's pretty awesome. Um let's see. Do you want to share where people can maybe schedule a guided trip?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:19

Um as of right now, I'm actually out of Utah for the winter, so I would say that would just be something that's something that like I don't know how much more I'll personally be guiding, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:35

Yeah, that's it, Paul. Okay, so like I said, we'll put that in the show notes so people can reach out and ask you questions and uh and yeah. Last question, are you ready? If you could go back to when you first started fly fishing and give yourself two pieces of advice, one more tactical and one more philosophical, what would you tell yourself to help you progress as a fly fisher?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:59

I would say that getting decent gear is important, you know, don't fight all that cheap gear for so long, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:12

Okay. Call that tactical. Yeah. How about philosophical?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:17

I would say what exactly do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:22

Um, just something that if you could go back and you could say, like, hey Tim, think about this, uh, it'll help you progress as a fly fisher. It'll help you improve. So, like, on the tactical side, like, dude, don't wait so long to kind of like get better gear because it actually is gonna help you progress. Yeah. On the philosophical side, something might be like don't take it for granted, the time that you have, or you know, slow down on the water, or just something that you think.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:57

I think that's it. I think what you said there. I think that one of the things that bugs me a lot is and I think that's why I don't have any social media, I don't have TV, I don't have any of that stuff, is just like the race of the world. Yeah. And just people come in so hot-headed and fast-paced. To go fly fishing. I'm like, crap, man, settle down, you know, which that's just something I think I go at quite a few things like that, but yeah. Just slow down.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:33

Slow down is a good one. Yep. Tim, thank you for your time today. I appreciate you going through the big five with me and thinking about like how we approach those different kind of categories of fly fishing and get better at it. And like I said at the beginning, I love fishing with you, and I look forward to fishing with you more in the future, and I wish you all the luck with your new product that you're trying to launch as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:54

Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:56

Thanks for being on the show, man. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories, and artwork, check out my blog and online gallery at waitouthere.com. If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey, please subscribe and share. Until next time, Wade Out There.