WOT 248: Lake Tactics and Pack Strategies with Mickey Anderson

In this episode we WadeOutThere with Mickey Anderson, from Salt Lake City, Utah.  Mickey grew up in Utah, and was introduced to fly fishing on a trip into the Uinta Mountains with his wrestling team in high school.  He went on to work in the fly fishing industry as an early fly shop owner with Anglers Den and later Fish Tech. 

He has been teaching and instructing fly fishing, fly tying, and fly casting in one way or another for nearly fifty years, and he still finds the time to get out over a hundred times a year, these days spending much of that time exploring the mountains via hiking, backpacking and in his side by side.  

He also has been an avid designer for companies such as William Joseph, and later Rising, where he has won awards for his products and helped introduce the world to things such as the chest pack and net holsters.  

If you have been a member of a fly fishing club, committee, class, or expo in the Wasatch area of Utah… you’ve probably met Mickey.  

We discuss explorations of Utah’s Uinta mountain lakes and tactics for fishing them, including the importance of depth control and fly retrieve.  We also talk about the gear that will make your job easier.  Mickey shares his take on what makes a good fly fishing gear storage system (whether it's a vest, a hip pack, a sling, or just where you put your net) and how to find what works for you.

Learn More:
Risingfishing.com
Wasatchexpo.com
Utah Blue Ribbon Fisheries Advisory Council
Fishtechoutfitters.com

Visit WadeOutThere.com/art for 10% off your first original painting or limited edition print from show host and artist Jason Shemchuk

Newsletter Sign-Up . Sign up for emails with new podcast episodes, blog articles, and updates on artwork from Jason.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

In this episode, we wait out there with Mickey Anderson from Salt Lake City, Utah. Mickey grew up in Utah and was introduced to fly fishing on a trip into the Uinta Mountains with his wrestling team in high school. He went on to work in the fly fishing industry as an early fly shop owner with Angler's Den and later Fish Tech. He has been teaching and instructing fly fishing, fly tying, and fly casting in one way or another for nearly fifty years, and he still finds the time to get out over a hundred times a year. These days, spending much of that time exploring the mountains via hiking, backpacking, and in his side by side. He has also been an avid designer for companies such as William Joseph and later Rising, where he has won awards for his products and helped introduce the world to things such as the chess pack and net holsters. If you have been a member of a fly fishing club, committee, class, or expo in the Wasatch area of Utah, you've probably met Mickey. We discuss exploring Utah's Uinta mountain lakes and tactics for fishing them, including the importance of depth control and fly retrieve. We also talk about the gear that will make your job easier. Mickey shares his take on what makes a good fly fishing gear storage system, whether it's a fest, a hit pack, a sling, or just where you put your net, and how to find what works for you. Welcome to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Shefchuk. At Wade Out There, we believe fly fishing is special, but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There. Welcome, Mickey. Thanks for being on the Wade Out There podcast. Yeah, you bet. Thanks for having me. Sure, I'm excited to talk to you. I mentioned this before the show, but my audience is pretty familiar with this. But anytime I get a chance to talk to someone uh from Utah, especially someone that's been out in Utah fishing so much for so long, it's always a privilege and an honor and a selfish little taste for me to like Yeah, just up my game a little bit and learn a lot about the waters I fish and and those types of things. I want to talk about that time in Utah and all your fishing and a little bit of the service that you've had or teaching and instructing all those years, and we're definitely going to get into some tactics. But I thought I would start with the pike story. I want to hear. I feel like it's the elephant in the room. I need to get it off my chest. I don't think I can wait till later to ask it. So I'm just I want to know. So the Pike world record 12-pound test on a fly line. You held that record from 1983 to 1988, and I want to know. You're not gonna believe this. I want to know the whole story. Okay, this is perfect. Things I want to get out of this story are I mean, who was fly fishing for Pike in 1983? I mean, were you nobody? Yeah, okay, that's what I thought. So, how did that even enter your brain? And then maybe some of the lessons you learned, and I'm can already tell there's probably a funny story in there somewhere, too.

SPEAKER_04 3:30

Yeah, so it was in Northwest Territories, Great Slate Lake. We were going up there to fish, mostly with gear, but I did take my fly rod, knowing that you know you could catch pike and other fish on fly. So we spent the first day pike fishing with gear, just to learn the hit, to learn the take, to learn when to set the hook. I know that sounds stupid, but especially with topwater stuff, you can't set the hook until you feel the fish. Number one. So I learned that from the first day of when to set. That's important in this story.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

So wait, real quick, where did when you say the Northern Territories Northwest Territories is Great Slave Lake? Northwest Territories of like Canada, sorry Canada. Okay. I was like, okay. Sorry. Yeah. I got a D in geography, but thank you.

SPEAKER_04 4:26

Yeah, so we were up and uh we were fishing with a guide.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:31

And I showed the guide a fly rod. He had never seen a fly rod.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

He'd never even seen it before. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 4:36

No, he was an Inuit Indian native to the area. Grew up on the lake, so he knew the lake really well. So we are, I told him, I said, I can't cast this as far as we've been casting speeding gear. You need to take me in closer to shore. And he just said, Okay, and we are way out in the lake. And the friend that I was fishing with was throwing buzzbaits right at the shoreline. He was catching them, and I said, I can't throw it this far. Take me in. And he kept pointing. He said, No, cast over here, out into the middle of the lake. And I said, I can't. I said, take me in, get me in closer. And he goes, No, cast over here. I said, All right, you know the lake. I threw one cast where he told me a huge bike comes up and misses my fly.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Okay, is this a missed fly or a missed hook set?

SPEAKER_04 5:28

Uh missed fly. So the fish's fly. It's the fish's fly. This explosion. Okay. If you don't set the hook, you get another shot. Okay. So the fly is still sitting there, and my friend said, What was that? I said, a huge fish. Really? I said, Yeah, watch.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

So you knew at this point, you knew this is you don't know it's a world record, but you know it's big.

SPEAKER_04 5:48

Yeah, so the fish turned and took it again. Luckily, I didn't set the hook till I fell it. I set the hook, so one cast. So I get this fish in, and they have us, you know, hold it up for pictures and everything. I it was big and I hadn't seen anything like that before. So I maybe held it out of the water too long. I decided, you know, we're putting this fish back. We got good pictures. I put it back in the water, it turned belly up. So I grabbed it and tried to. I told the guy to run the boat for a little bit just while I held it alongside of the boat. Thought that would help. Nothing. I took it this eight in the morning. I took the fish and put it in a bucket in the bottom of the boat because the lodge owner said if anyone gets a big one, he wants to mound it because he doesn't have one in the lodge. I thought, fine, I accidentally killed it. We'll keep it. So we put it in the bucket, starts flopping all over the boat. So I put it back in the water, trying to let it go. Won't go. Said, all right, that's it, it's in the bucket. So from eight in the morning till five that afternoon, it sat in the bottom of the bucket in the boat. So we get in that afternoon, I show the lodge owner a fish, he said, that's perfect, that's just what I want. Luckily, guys from Field and Stream magazine were there at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 7:01

And they said, if you did everything legally, that's the new world record. And I said, Really? And I did everything legal because we didn't have anything to go by. You know, what's the leader setup? How do you even start this?

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Right.

SPEAKER_04 7:16

So I read the world record book to have an idea of how to build a leader to fish for pipe and how to set it up. So I had everything was perfect, it was just right.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Do you remember like what are the rules? I mean, it sounds like there's rules. So what are there is.

SPEAKER_04 7:32

So the number one rule is you can have shock tippet or bite tippet. Shock tippet can be made of anything you want, but it can only be 12 inches from the eye of the fly to the connecting knot.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Because you need something stronger than fly line because of the teeth and stuff like that. So right, they just bite right through it. Right.

SPEAKER_04 7:51

So at that time fluorocarbon wasn't around. There was wire, but I was going to use floating flies. So I used a it's called hard at that time it wasn't either. It was 60-pound mono that I had at the store. And so I built a leader with 60-pound monofilament to tie that to my fly, hoping they couldn't bite through it.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_04 8:12

And so everything worked one cast, and I've got the world record.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

So you're experimenting. To me, that just shows a fly fisherman that is even from that long ago, just thinking outside the box, like, what how am I going to do this? I want to try and catch a fish with my fly line or with a fly rod. I'm taking it up here. No one else is doing it, at least on not on that trip. And then um you're building your own leader up there. But I guess you had to, right? Because it seems like just like this idea that you had, and then you're like, okay, well, how do I do that?

SPEAKER_04 8:48

Yeah, how do I do it? Now, how do you get tippet that's that heavy straight? Pulling 60 pounds straight is tough. So I heated it all, and I had all these pieces in a cylinder inside my rod case. So I had these straight pieces to even start with.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

And then you tied them together? What did you use for your knot? It was an Albright. Uh Albright knot. Okay. Yeah. And now um that's good with heavier line like that.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

Yeah, but now there's an easier knot. And if I can come up with the name, I'll think of it. Anyway, there's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

I'm thinking of a knot too that's slipping my my oh a blood knot? Is it a blood knot? I like a blood knot.

SPEAKER_04 9:29

No, because I was tying 60 pound to oh and to 12 pound test, you just can't do a blood, but you can do the crap. Now I'm not gonna come up with a that's okay. That's okay. There is a really good knot for it now. Anyway, to connect the two, you've got to have uh the strength there. Yeah and when you choose your tippet, it has to break lower than the pound clash you're turning it in for. It has to break above the other one, which was eight pound test, and below twelve. I chose ten just randomly because I felt like that had enough uh stiffness to turn over a big fly in my cast. So everything was just total luck. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

I mean, there's some luck, but there's a lot of things you described to me just now that were not luck. They're very, very thoughtful decisions that you made. Have you been back to the lodge? Have you seen this fish? I have.

SPEAKER_04 10:28

Yeah. I got it. The fish is here in my house. I had to bring it home to weigh it in.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:34

So it was frozen for a week. I brought it home, took it to a grocery store on a certified scale, and that's how I turned it in. Then I sent it to a taxidermist and he mounted it, and it's here in my house now.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Oh, it's in your house. I thought it was in the lodge.

SPEAKER_04 10:49

He wanted it, but when those guys told me it was a world record, I had to get it certified, so I brought it home.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

You know, I just realized this in the conversation. I hadn't thought about this before we started talking, but I too have a mounted pike in my home. Oh nice. Yeah. My wife, when she was a little girl, probably my son's age, my son is ten now, maybe even a little younger than that, probably, maybe like six or seven. Her grandfather took her fishing, I believe, up in Minnesota, just her and him on this fishing trip for pike, I guess, and they caught this pike and had it mounted, and it's got a plaque, and it's above our fireplace downstairs. Very cool. It's not a world record, but it's pretty cool. It's very special. And we've had it since we got married, and it's been in a special place in our home kind of ever since. So I don't know. We have that in common there, Mickey.

SPEAKER_04 13:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Oh, go ahead. Okay. So before we start recording, you said you've been fishing and teaching in Utah for 46 years. I'm curious if you can go back that far. Can you tell me maybe is your earliest memory of fly fishing kind of in and around that time when you were working in the fly shops and starting? Because I think I read that you started fly tying first and then you kind of quickly got moved into fly fishing. I'm curious about your earliest memory and how it kind of influenced the way you grew up fly fishing.

SPEAKER_04 14:29

No, so I started fly fishing in 1974, so 51 years. And uh my old wrestling coach, my high school wrestling coach, took a few of us out fishing one day, and he was fly fishing, and we were using gear. And I thought, no, I can make that switch, I can do it. I played with it a little bit. My dad bought us a fly rod when we were little because I was so little and skinny, he didn't want me waiting, but a fly rod was longer, so I fished worms on a fly rod so I could swing them out into the hole. So I had a fly rod and I thought I need to learn how to cast this. And my coach kind of started me, and then I spent that summer just really focusing on how to even cast, how to do it, and I did it back and forth, I'd say, and probably until about 78, 77, 78. And then I thought, hey, it's going hardcore. I'm gonna learn how to do this.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

You got into it pretty hardcore. Well, at that time too, you guys were Anglers Inn, which is now that turned into Anglers Den. And then you also started Fish Tech. So there's a lot of kind of professional parts of fly fishing happening in your life around that time, too, right?

SPEAKER_04 15:41

Yeah. So I started at Anglers Inn uh January 8th, 1980. I was commercial fly tying for them and teaching fly tying for them the year before. So in 79 was when I started teaching fly tying. And uh became a commercial fly tyre. I thought, it is pretty cool. I can make quite a bit of money. Okay. They paid me about 50 cents a fly.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Okay. That's not nothing. Yeah. So that's kind of when you started out. What kept you coming back in the beginning, and maybe how has that changed? So, what is it about fly fishing that captured you and has that changed throughout the years?

SPEAKER_04 16:20

Oh, I've been too competitive my whole life.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Oh, yeah. I was gonna say uh I I don't want to interrupt, but you mentioned wrestling, and now everything is making sense because I did, for those of people listening, if you go to Mickey's Instagram, you will find an old picture of Mickey with a shirt off. And it is impressive, sir. It is impressive. I was like, dang, look at this guy, man. Uh so now the wrestling story makes sense. Okay, so sorry to interrupt, don't want to embarrass you, but it's pretty awesome. Everyone should go check it out.

SPEAKER_04 16:55

I'm proud of that. That team, we are in the Utah Sports Hall of Fame. That 1974 Brighton wrestling team, we were unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Nice.

SPEAKER_04 17:06

So I'm in two Utah Hall of Fames now. That one with the team, and then I made it into the Utah Fly Fishing Hall of Fame for my own work.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Prestigious. Are you more proud of one or the other?

SPEAKER_04 17:17

Uh, the fly fishing, because that was by myself.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Yeah, it's probably more selflessness involved in that. Although team sport is important. Well, a wrestling sort of a team sport, I guess, not as much as like others. So back to what we were supposed to be. Sorry you interrupted you there. So we were still.

SPEAKER_04 17:45

And it kind of brought them over to fly fishing too, because I mean it was serious. And then, you know, then we all got good. Then it got really serious.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

But how'd you get past that hump? Because the story you most often hear is when you're a beginner, when you're a beginner fly fisher, typically, not everybody, some people just I guess they walk out there and just knock it out of the park on you know the first days and weeks, but usually there's a learning curve, and some people can't get past that learning curve, you know. Right. Some people are like, ah, this is weird. I don't know what's going on. I'm just gonna throw my spinner or my rooster tail or whatever and have fun fishing, which is fine, you know. But is there something yeah? I get that like once you start catching more and fish, like it makes more sense and you're happier with it and it can be more problem solving. But is there something that like just the problem solving competitive nature of you? Is that kind of like I gotta figure this out? Yeah, yeah, it's just how much time do you want to put into it?

SPEAKER_04 18:37

It's like anything I cast every day when I got home from work. And I just I sat up my driveway and I cast and cast and cast. I'd go down to Angler's Inn before I started working there. There's a guy there named Emmett Heath, fantastic guy. He'd come out and coach me a little bit. So I was down there a lot and he'd watch me cast. So I just I had to do that, and I thought, well, why do I need to cast so far? What what advantage do I have? And we actually did more lake fishing and stream fishing right at first. I had a really nice boat. Yeah, we'd go out in the boat and throw for distance, and then it started to make sense that I can hold my fly at an exact depth longer than anyone can with gear. And I think that's why I was catching so many more fish than my friends. And so then it started to become a study of insects too, and why are the fish there? So, yeah, I think it was the study and the extra work you put into it that can really get you over that hump and get you into a point that you're not even thinking about things anymore. It just starts happening, and yeah, you know, and today the equipment that's available is unbelievable, you know, compared to what it was.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Well, we're gonna talk equipment, especially equipment carrying equipment, gear and packs and stuff later. And I want to move on a little bit to kind of some of the fishing you're excited about these days with the lake fishing that you mentioned. But I thought I would put a pin in this idea of hold my fly at depth that you mentioned. I think that's really interesting. And I've heard this before talking to other folks that that fly fish in lakes. I don't do a ton of it. I was actually just up in the UNTES with my son a couple weeks ago, which was awesome. I mean, we went up to this lake that had huge brook trout in it, man. It was you probably know where I I read about it in uh Utah Guide to Fly Fishing. Uh Jim Demo's book? Yeah, you know, they always they put these like Fly Fisher's Guide to Colorado or whatever. I got I got Fly Fisher's Guide to Utah as a gift when we moved here. And uh I found it in there and super cool. So if anyone wants to catch a bunch of big brook trout, check it out.

SPEAKER_04 20:50

But anyway, I I've got my leader in that book. Oh, really? Mickey, my small stream leader is in that book. I designed a leader just for that.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

I think it's up in my bedroom because I've been trying to find a new new lake to I would go, I would break it out.

SPEAKER_04 21:05

Mickey's recipe is in the what he has it in the back as, so you can look it up.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Okay, Mickey's recipe. Maybe we'll try and put that in the show notes. I'll see. I'm gonna write that down. Mickey's recipe for the show notes for people. If I can find it, folks, I'll put it in there. All right, cool. So, yeah, this idea of holding your fly at depth, and that seems very important, and like this chronomids and things where they're kind of they're elevated and you're trying to find that depth, and these chronomids are kind of moving up slowly, and then they bounce down and come back up, from what I understand. Can you talk about how you discovered that or did you learn that from someone else, or did you learn that by chance?

SPEAKER_04 21:47

Yeah, back then we weren't using indicators on lakes at all.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

So you used your line to get it down, and then you could probably strip it to keep it kind of where you need it. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:58

So, you know, back then there was a type, type two line means it sinks two inches a second.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:05

That was the number one selling line. There was a type two and a type four. Type four is four inches a second.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 22:12

I had both those lines. I had a depth liner on my boat.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 22:16

I was so paranoid the fish could hear a motor, I would shut my motor off when I was close to an area, yeah, and I would row all the way to where I wanted a fish, being as quiet as I could.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

I was not surprised. From the brief time I've known you, I this makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_04 22:32

I'd watch my depth liners and see where the fish were.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 22:35

Once I saw where most of the fish were, I chose a line that I thought would get me down quick enough and stay there. Okay. So if they were less than 10 feet, I use the type 2. If they were deeper than 10, I used the type four. And then knowing that it sinks two inches a second, I'd count it down. Count it, dude. That's awesome. Path and start counting before I'd start moving it. And that is still the number one mistake most lake fishers are not doing. I would bet 90% of lake fishers have no idea where their fly is. I know exactly where mine is always.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

I use an indicator. The cast and count thing makes sense. So many variables are going into this. Right. Did you develop any rules of thumb for like how fast to strip to kind of keep it? Because if you if you let it keep going, it's going to keep going and going. So at some point, you don't have an indicator, so you need to pull to kind of re like rise it up in the water column. Or I don't know if it's a water column in a lake, but yeah. Move it up and then let it sink down. So you got to time that too. How do you handle that?

SPEAKER_04 23:46

Yeah, I start stripping before I reach the depth, knowing it's going to sink a little bit on the slow strip.

SPEAKER_02 23:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:54

Knowing it's going to sink a little bit, but then it'll be in the prime zone, it'll go below the prime zone and then come back up through it again.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 24:02

So I do start stripping just before I think my fly is right where the fish are, but fish see up better than down. So I know that they will come up uh to hit it. So that's good.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

And I guess, yeah, if you kind of hit bull. Sides of the window, you're kind of safe, right? You can let it go a little bit past, you know, make sure I got where I needed to go, and then you can go up a little further and let it sink. You can kind of hit the whole window. And you've got a fish finder helping you, but I guess if you didn't have that, you could just experiment with different depths until you figure it out. And the way you know is by counting out the time, right?

SPEAKER_04 24:37

Yes. And then trying all the different depths. So if I'm fishing from shore, naturally I don't know how deep they are. So there I cast and count to five, then 10, then 20 until I get a pattern that works.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Depends on the sink rate of your line that you've got.

SPEAKER_04 24:52

Right. So I start with a confidence fly, just something that I feel good about. And then look at that fly. If that was an actual insect or minnow, how fast could that thing possibly move in the water? If you know what you're trying to imitate, then you can imitate the strip that would match how they swim. If it's just kind of a general pattern, like a woolly bugger, I always think about how fast that could move. If it's big, it can move faster. If it's really teeny, it can't move that fast. So I start my strip by the size of the fly I'm using, and I'll play with it. Uh go through everything. I start with depth first, believing that's the most important. You got to get to the fish.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:37

Retrieve second, fly third. And if it doesn't work, I know that there is fish there, then I'm changing my fly and going through the same thing over again. Depth, retrieve, and change to fly.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

The thing that's so great about that, I can tell that you've been in the teaching business for a long time because it's very memorable. I mean, what we're doing and what you're doing, I'm not doing anything, I'm just asking questions, but what you're doing is breaking things down very manageable for people. Like you give them a rule of thumb, this is how you try and find the different depths, and this is a way to approach the strip, and like it all makes sense. And well, real quick, real quick before I forget, is this your fly lines or your leaders or both? Like, what's the the sink rate is based on the leader or the line? Because a lot of guys go up to the lake and they don't have sinking fly line, right?

SPEAKER_04 26:28

They okay, yes. Then they have to go by the either adding weight uh sinkers to your leader or a weighted fly.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

And then you're off a bobber kind of thing, right?

SPEAKER_04 26:40

Yeah, you could be off a bobber or you can just cast and strip also.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Oh, okay. But you don't have as precise knowledge about what depth you are, so it's kind of you're more out there, I I think.

SPEAKER_04 26:51

I would rather use the fly line to get my fly down than the weight of the fly, because it's good the weight of the fly is gonna sink past that column too quick.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

What's the best rod for this?

SPEAKER_04 27:04

I tell what they've got right now.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Let's say you're out in the mountains and you're going in the UNTAs and stuff, you know?

SPEAKER_04 27:10

Oh wow. You need to do a lot of roll casting, and out on big lakes, I do use a little bit longer rod. I'll use a nine and a half foot rod.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 27:17

Uh, that's a really good roll casting rod. So if you've got a lot of trees behind you and you can't put the fly in the air, that'll do that. If you do have the opportunity to put it in the air, that nine and a half will cast distance a little bit easier.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Okay. All right. Cool. That is helpful. I interrupted you again. Go ahead, sir. No, my one last lake tip, and you're gonna say, you know, that sounds really stupid. We're gonna get a lot more lake tips out of you, so go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 27:44

What is a hit?

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Okay. Sounds dumb, doesn't it? Is that a question for me? Let me think about it.

SPEAKER_04 27:50

Yeah, no, it's for everybody. What is a hit? Don't always hit away from you. You feel that one. You always know that that one's there.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:58

Sometimes they take it and they move with it. Yeah. And they're coming to you slow. Sometimes they come to you fast because they chased it down and grabbed it. You need to feel that difference. And the way to describe it is if you put a piece of paper on top of a desktop, slide your finger across that paper, and then slide it across the desktop. There is a different feeling. That is a bit and you never raise the rod to set the hook, strip it fast, do a strip set, always.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 28:32

And if there's nothing there, big deal. But what if there was?

SPEAKER_00 28:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:37

You didn't pick up a piece of moss. It is a fish.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

So you're a hook sets are free guy.

SPEAKER_04 28:42

I hook set a lot.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Okay. Yeah, me too. And I know that like there's an opportunity cost there because if it wasn't a fish, then you've kind of you know I'm thinking river fishing, right? But you know, maybe okay, now I have to recast and it didn't flow through. But I think, especially in the beginning, but even now, I am more of a hook set person because I'd rather not miss a fish. And trout are so sneaky, you know. I didn't realize how much they actually can spit things out and stuff until I was reading Tom Rosenbauer's book, I think. Yeah, the Orbis book. Yeah, and he's talking about how they can just spit things out, and they're always like they don't have hands, so they're just that's how they check things out. And curiosity. Yeah, so just like, oh, what's this thing over here? You know, exactly. Okay, that's awesome. Anything else you wanted to say on that before I keep going?

SPEAKER_04 29:35

No, that's it on lakes. You know, a lot of it changes from or what I learned was uh from river fishing, which is what I mostly do, and I teach the Euro classes. Euronymphing is where you learn so much about hits. Yeah. What fish can do that you never even knew before.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

So Utah and lakes in Utah is something that you've always been interested in, but I kind of want to stick with lakes now and get more into some of the camping and backpacking, and we talked before the show, you have a side-by-side now. So I'm not looking for where you're going, but I'm just interested in you know what kind of makes that special for you, this continuous exploration of lakes in Utah.

SPEAKER_04 30:23

Oh, the looking for that magic spot. Yeah. I mean, we we found one maybe five years ago. It was before our drought, so five, six years ago. Doesn't matter. Magic spot. Anyway, yeah, that had big tigers in it. It was a long hike to get to it. Somebody accidentally told me about it.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 30:42

So we hiked in and it was fun. There were so many fish and some big tigers. It was great. It winter killed, and we hiked back in a year later. Nothing. Really? There was nothing left in that lake.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

What was that like when he told you? And were you just staring at each other? And he was like, ah, dang. Like, did he was he like what what did you say? Like, oh nothing. No, you said something there about like giant tiger. No, no, I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about. Was it or did he like uh come clean and like say, Yeah, yeah?

SPEAKER_04 31:15

No, I think he was bragging. Oh my god, he's finished, yeah. It was so good, it was yeah, where's it?

SPEAKER_00 31:22

So he unwittingly was a victim of your fisherman curiosity. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, so just like finding that spot, and we talked before the show too, is it like you took your sidebite set up with your girlfriend and you mentioned three of them there was nothing, and one of them there was free. And I don't think people are ready enough for that, myself included. I think that's why people don't kind of go exploring, especially if you're short of time, you don't have a lot of time to go fishing. It's like I don't want to waste a whole day, quote, waste a whole day and not be rewarded with the reward, quote, fish, right? And I really try hard not to, even if it's just to try a new section of the river, right? I know I've got spots I like, you know, I I know where I want to go. It's sometimes even hard just to try a new section. Can you talk about kind of the importance of that exploration, not just for catching fish, but like on your fly fishing journey?

SPEAKER_04 32:22

Yeah, so now uh I only work one day a week now.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Good for you.

SPEAKER_04 32:26

I'm old and about ready to retire. So, yeah, about the time.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

About ready to retire. That sounds like you are retired, sir.

SPEAKER_04 32:33

Yeah, it is.

unknown 32:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

Yeah, so now I've got six days a week. All right. So if I burn a couple days, you know, walking or driving, uh, you know, it's not a big deal. It is. I want to catch a fish. It's always better when you catch a fish. But if I don't, I learned something and I'll mark that off and go somewhere else. I found two more blue lines on a map that will be explored if maybe not this year, it'll be first part of next year.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

That's cool. Tell me a story. I want another story. Do you have a memory of a fish that you've caught up in one of these lakes that stands out as you as particularly memorable, or maybe a fish that got away? I know I know there's lots of them, but uh is there a fish that that that stands out, maybe a lesson learned or something that just really um sticks with you.

SPEAKER_04 33:24

Oh more on streams on lakes, you never know what you got. Yeah, you don't know if you got something sideways. I did hook two really big fish at Strawberry. I mean, heavier than anything I've ever hooked. One could have been a beaver, it was that big and that strong.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:42

That I invented a fly. I thought this is kind of dopey looking, but it's worth a try. It's before they connected Strawberry and Soldier Creek. So it goes way, way back. We were on the Soldier Creek side back in, we called it the Meadows, which is now uh Indian Creek Bay, Renegade Bay, whatever you want to call it. We were back in there before they connected the tube. I hooked something on this new flight, I invented, and I can't catch up to it. I'm trying, it's just taking my line. We were in round tubes, kickboats, we call them float tubes. I couldn't keep up. I so I turned around backwards and I'm kicking, trying to catch up to this.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:19

And it finally stopped. It wrapped me up in something.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:23

And I started pulling and trying to get it free. I there was a lot of sagebrush on the bottom. I ended up breaking my fly line in half on something. And I had friends all around watching what was going on.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:37

Uh similar story. I was fishing with Greg Ostertag, used to be the Jazz Center, fishing with him, and I hooked something really heavy. This one I got to see a little bit. And I hollered out to him and hollering to him, other people that I knew were at Strawberry Also's in uh Bryant's work. And it was the same thing, just really heavy. And I'm trying to get it up. I saw a flash. I said, this is really big, and everybody gathered around me just in time for the hook to pull out of that one.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:07

So at least I got to see a flash.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Anything you'd do different or any takeaways from that, or that's just the game, man. You could win some and you lose some.

SPEAKER_04 35:16

Yeah, I thought I was doing everything right. Uh, I thought it too long. Yeah. You know, I'd like to try to get it up a little bit quicker. I think as you fight them longer and longer, that hole that you made with the hook going through their jaw wears out and starts to get bigger all the time, and it's easier to throw a hook.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

And you never know like how delicate that hook set is, or kind of it could be like super solid, right? In the kind of cartilagey stuff where it's hard to pull that hook out, even if it's not barbed, and then sometimes it's like barely, barely there, you know.

SPEAKER_04 35:47

Yeah, and I had a story of a learning experience. I was fishing with my friend, we were in his boat, my friend and his dad, and my dad, and myself. We'd been fishing three or four hours at strawberry again. I didn't have a fish. I thought, all right, they can see my leader. I kept lengthening my leader, making it longer and longer, thinking they can see something. What's the difference in mine and theirs? I could not catch a fish. My friend's dad were in a boat. My friend and I were in our round kickboats or float tubes.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:19

I finally gave up. They said, hey, we gotta go. I went to the boat and I could I said, Can I borrow anybody's rod and just see? And I took my friend's rod because he was still in the water with me, made one cast, and caught my only fish. What the takeaway from that was my leader was too long then. Why that makes a difference is then you don't know where your fly is. Your line is sinking, is your fly sinking at the same speed as the line? So you need a short enough leader that your fly sinks at the same speed. I went the wrong way. I went longer and longer. I wasn't getting my fly down where they were. So that was uh the learning of I did not have the right leader. A shorter leader is better than a long leader for most lake fishing with sinking lines, about floating with sinking lines.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Because, yeah, that makes sense because you're just more connected, everything is kind of more predictable. Is that what you're saying? It sounds like that's where you're kind of getting at. Yeah. I have a couple more questions about exploration of Utah lakes, but I want to really get your thoughts on some more of the tactical questions. So I'm gonna ask these questions. This is kind of like I don't want to call it a lightning round because you can take longer than there's no rules. There's no rules on the way to out there podcast, but these are just questions that I'd like you to answer in the context of the Utah lake fishing that we've been discussing. If you can, if it doesn't make sense, or you know, you want a a story or a thought or an idea about river fishing comes up, that's fine. But I'm gonna start uh asking those. Are you ready? Sure. Okay. What do you change first when you're not catching fish? And then remember, now you're on the length. Yep. Depth. Okay. We've talked a lot about that. That makes sense. And uh so if you're up backpacking or in the side by side, you you always have two rods, I guess. This is like a part two to that question.

SPEAKER_04 38:10

Four or more, yeah, minimum two.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Or do you ever just bring the reel and then swap out, or do you like to have the whole separate thing?

SPEAKER_04 38:17

Oh well, no, I yeah, I'll have a reel with extra spools, and I'll have a variety of lines from full float, sink tip, which is what I like to use from shore, and full sinking. Uh sink tip works really well because you're standing on shore, you're standing in the shallowest part of the lake, the sink tip goes down. When you start to retrieve, it comes back up. So you follow the shoreline a little bit better. Okay. There's days that they don't want that coming back up, and they want a lot more level retrieve, and your full sinking line will retrieve at a lot more level retrieve than your sink tip does. And I've got full floating for balance leeches, caronomids, other things I just want to hang underneath of an indicator, or if they're near the surface.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Okay. That makes sense. All right. Question number two. What do you consider unappreciated in fly selection? Again, in the context of this lake type fishing.

SPEAKER_04 39:11

Oh crap. Confidence?

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Confidence.

SPEAKER_04 39:16

Yeah, I think that there are so many different flies that will work. If you've got confidence and you know how to fish that fly, you might stick with it just a little bit longer, and maybe you were just in a bad area. Maybe you know that'll put you you once you find the right area, now your fly's gonna work.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

That's the answer that I would expect from someone who's been fishing around here for 50 years. It's not, I mean, it's not really the fly. That's the fly selection answer. That's great. Right. Okay. Um what are two techniques for reading water that you most often use?

SPEAKER_04 39:53

Lake or river?

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Uh I was thinking lake, you know, like or you we could kind of you you think about reading water, you're thinking about seams and stuff, but I would think in lakes too, you're like uh you know looking at wind and there's always some. I learned this talking to salt guys and gals. There's always some current in these big bodies of water. There's something, the water is always moving. You're not so anything that your thoughts on that? Maybe one or two.

SPEAKER_04 40:18

Yes, uh temperature. Uh so uh springtime, fall, the fish will be up in the shallows, summertime they're they're deeper.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:27

Uh can I reach that from shore? Uh so you know a point, fish will will swim past a point. So I look for points first. If it's a season that something could be hatching, what do you mean by like point? Like a rocky point, something that sticks out.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 40:47

If it's a season where something can hatch, I'm looking for where that insect could live. We've got mayflies, caddis, midges, that any one uh damsels, dragons, I'm looking for the water where they live, and the fish will be there when the temperature is comfortable for them. So, you know, if it's too hot in the middle of the day, they're gonna be there morning and afternoons. You know, so stuff like that. So I'm looking for food and temperature. If none of that is going on, and you go into you in a lake and you a brand new lake, you just haven't got a clue of what could even live there. But I'll go to a point and look for depth because then I can cast straight out to the deepest water, I can cast parallel to the shore at any depth I want, and I can fish whatever depth I need to.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

Gives you options. So the point is important because it helps increase your reach without or one of the reasons, you can get further out into the lake, right?

SPEAKER_04 41:44

Yeah. And then it's usually deep in front of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

What you just described sounds a lot like my trip out to this lake with my son, you know, that was the middle of the day. You know, this is August, so it was still cool at night, but it was hot during the day, real hot. We're in t-shirts. And yeah, middle of the day, they're all rising, but they're just a little bit further than I can yeah. And we had plenty of room to back cast and a lot of me like casting way out there, hook set, hand it to my son, type of thing. But then in the morning it was a little easier closer in, the morning and evenings because the temperatures are changing and such, like you said. But what I didn't do, which I would do next time, there were some places where I could have moved my body to to like get further out into the lake. I'm thinking of one spot in particular that if I had kind of gone out there, I would have had at least a better chance midday to get further.

SPEAKER_04 42:35

So that's yeah, good advice. All right. And that's right, take a bigger rod than a lot of people take. Everybody wants their little three weights, and you know, and they're fun. Yeah, and I take a nine and a half that's six weight.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

Yes, we're optimists, you and I. We're optimists. Like, why would I need the big rod for the big fish?

SPEAKER_04 42:51

Um the distance guys.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

That's right. Has there been any big unlock for you? It sounds, I mean, the answer I think I might know the answer to this with the depth, but has there been any other big unlock for you with lake fishing that you can remember? Some sort of like aha moment or light bulb.

SPEAKER_04 43:10

No.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

That's fine. That's a good answer. That's cool. We talked a lot about depth. That's a cool um observation always plays a key role, and everyone talks about the importance of observation. For sure. What is one of the less obvious observations that helps you problem solve up in these lakes?

SPEAKER_04 43:27

Uh looking for bugs instead of food. Okay. So, you know, what's going on, what's happening, why would they be here? Why wouldn't they be here? So I I think that looking for moss banks, fish, I don't think, want to swim right into the middle of the moss. We've seen them do it, but most of the time they'll skirt the edges of the moss. So looking for a moss bank that the insects can be in, and the fish will cruise the edges of that, and then trying to cast parallel to those and keep your fly there. Cruisers or above them.

SPEAKER_00 43:59

Yeah. All right. What's an unappreciated piece of gear? One of your more unappreciated pieces of gear that you take up in the mountains when you're fishing?

SPEAKER_04 44:09

Fluorocarbon. Fluoro. I am so set on fluorocarbon for dry flies or nymphs.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 44:16

Especially dries.

SPEAKER_00 44:18

Even a liter, even a liter.

SPEAKER_04 44:21

Uh mostly tippet, but yes, on lakes I will use full liters. They're just too expensive to use all the time. So I I always use fluorocarbon tippet.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Well, that makes sense. If you're not dry fly fishing, you could use a fluoro liter and that would work, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:35

Yeah. So the fluoro sinks. So it doesn't cast a shadow. Nylon is a neutral density. If any part of it is floating, it's creating a shadow and it's making a dotted line all the way to your fly. It makes your fly look like it's four feet long instead of a half inch long.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Why a dotted line? What is that about?

SPEAKER_04 44:59

So take a piece of monofilament.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:02

Go fill up your bathroom sink. Take a piece of monofilament and set it on top.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 45:06

It'll sit there. Part of it floats, part of it sinks. Look at the bottom of the sink. And you're going to see the light reflection on the bottom. And it actually makes a huge shadow on the bottom anytime it touches the surface. If it's under the surface, there is no shadow. There's no light deflected because of that dent that you made with it sitting on the surface. So fluorocarbon makes your fly look like it's half inch long. Got it. Nylon makes your fly look like it's four feet long.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Um what are two habits you've developed in helping you fight and land fish?

SPEAKER_04 45:47

Oh man, get the fish on the reel as quick as you can. Okay. The drags are so smooth on the reels now that once you get it on the reel, it's hard to lose it. If you're strip fighting it, it stutters as the fish run and it runs through your fingers. That little stutter will shake the rod. I lost the biggest fish I've ever had on trying to strip fight it.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 46:09

So you strip when you have to. I had a chance to permit fish this year, and I caught a permit. My guide is yelling, strip, strip. I had a big enough reel, I could reel and keep up with the fish, but you've got to keep that line tight. I prefer to do it with the reel. Sometimes I'll strip fight. So that would be number one is get the fish on the reel. A good fish. Okay. Yeah. On the reel as quick as you can.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Well, you say good fish. That's one of my things too with fighting fish. And I've come to I assume it's a big fish. So my initial plan is get it on the reel. Yeah, perfect. The fish has to prove to me that it doesn't deserve to be on the reel. But like I'm like because I've I've messed that up where it's like, eh, whatever, I'm being complacent, and then all of a sudden, uh-oh, whoops. And then now I should have had him on the reel. Or I like to do that too. Some people don't, but what's a technique in casting you wish you had learned sooner?

SPEAKER_04 47:12

Double haul.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 47:14

Double haul came out. I call that one of the things in my generation was when people learned to double haul. It was brand new. And did that come out of salt or what is it? Yeah, probably.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:27

Uh it was just you know, hey, what are you doing? How are you doing that? And the practice, especially with the new lines, new lines have really made this easy. New lines are three colors.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:41

Old lines were just one solid color, knowing when to shoot the cast, knowing what your limit is, when to let it go. The new lines are marked. It's easy to see that. Watch those lines, watch those colors. You'll be amazed at the distance you'll get with a lot less effort.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

Oh, that was kind of my next part too. That question is what techniques do you have to help learn? But using the colors, that's a good answer. All right. This is the last lightning round question. What's a technique that you've changed your mind on, or a tactic, or a way of fishing up in these lakes that you used to think one way pretty passionately, and maybe you you've swung the other way.

SPEAKER_04 48:22

It doesn't have to be passionate, but something I'd say I'm in a hurry to get out of there. Uh don't stay in one place too long. Even if you're like you mentioned the Una Lakes, those tiger trout are just looking at you. They've already seen what you have to offer. They don't like it. They're not going to take it. Even though you still see fish there, get out of there. Go find fresh fish.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

So fresh fish. You didn't always think that way. You used to stick with that.

SPEAKER_04 48:46

No, there's a fish with there. I'm going to catch that fish. I'll keep changing flies. I'll keep changing things. That fish isn't going to eat it.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

That's something that yeah, I've learned in the last, I don't know, five or six years too is especially like be sight fishing in Colorado when I was younger. And these rivers, you know, they're great sight fishing rivers. You can see the fish, and I would just like, there's a fish. He's there. I need to catch this fish. And the difference between a fish that you see and a fish that you see that is eating, or a fish that would eat, or looking for other things. Like and and that sight fishing experience then kind of informed my non-site fishing experience that, like, there, even if I can't see them, there are fish in a place where I think there's fish, or like, I know there's fish in here. They might not be as prone to eating as others in a little section further up.

SPEAKER_04 49:36

Right. And rivers have a lot more going for it. I mean, I can tell if a fish is is feeding or nervous in a river. I can't always figure that out in a lake. I can still see the fish. I don't know. I don't feel like I know as much about that fish. I'll leave it. Just keep moving, find fresh fish.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

All right. Let's say you only have two days of the year to go up and then up into the mountains fishing in these lakes. Don't tell me where you're going, but what two days of the year would you go and how would you fish them?

SPEAKER_04 50:09

Oh wow. Today and tomorrow and hope to sneak in another one. As soon as possible.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

It would be it'd definitely be fall. Fall? Both of them in the fall? Yes. Okay. But it's just so good. It's pretty too, right? Yeah. And are you fishing the same way with these uh sinking leaders and kind of looking for depth and those types of things? Yeah, sinking lines. Yeah. Okay. When do you like switch to dries? You ever get your dry game on, or like are you just when they give you a reason, and you'll get your dry flies out? Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 50:45

Yeah, if there's fish rising for sure, you know, I'll switch and play just because it's kind of fun. But for the one that you see on top, there's 10 underneath.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Yeah, probably. Yeah, that's true, right? I mean, yeah. I mean, unless you're yeah, you've got to find a really kicking hatch to break that rule, but they do happen. Uh I'm a slightly below average fly tire. If me and you were gonna go fly fishing up into the mountains at one of these lakes, is there a couple of simple, low material, low-skill flies that I could maybe put together that you would encourage me that you would look at when we when I showed up and be like, yeah, we can fish those, Jason?

SPEAKER_04 51:27

On a high mountain lake, uh a renegade has been one of my favorites. That's supply that started me fly fishing. But I will not dress it. I won't put a floating on it. Naturally, with the materials it's tied from, it'll float. I let it sink because if I cast to an area and now I want to change and go to a different area, instead of just stripping it or ripping it in, I'll start moving it and it'll sink. And just under the surface, it fishes really well too. So renegade would have to be one. Second would have to be something I don't have to dress or mess around with it, and or a beetle, something, a little foam fly that I can cast and cast and cast, and I don't have to keep dressing it and messing with it if I want it to stay on top.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

Small, dark, chubby or something like that. Those aren't too tough. Those are not too hard to tie. Yeah. Okay. Some sort of foam ant. Alright. That's fair. I want to change topics.

SPEAKER_04 52:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

Mickey, you're an artist. I'm an artist too. Nice. We both have a pike above our fireplace, and we both have art. We're both artists. When did you start incorporating art into your fly fishing experience? And water watercolor pencils is what I'm most familiar with, which are really cool. There's like a it's like this watercolor, it's a watercolor medium. It's a feel, but it's much more like, I don't know, precise or controlled, or like it feels different, you know?

SPEAKER_04 53:01

Yeah, and I just barely started with those. I've been using colored pencils. Uh just the realism you can get out of colored pencils is what I really focused on first. And uh uh the watercolors I decided to try. I thought, wow, this is great. So uh to teach myself, I've tried to do different studies. Uh, I did a fish, I did a cutthroat with three pencils a red, a yellow, and a blue. Just to uh that's cool. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:33

That's really so that was really fun to learn. And then after doing that, you know, it really opened up a lot of well, I can get that shade. I've already got a pencil of that shade, I can do this and brighten it with this or you know, whatever. So I think time was if I'm excited about something, I can do it pretty quick. If I'm not, I struggle. So time is I have more time now, and that's what got me into art more. I've always loved drawing and messing around, but now I have time to to do it.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

That's great. I'm happy for you. I've always been into art as well, and joined the Air Force when I was 18 and buried that part of me deep down inside, you know? Yeah. I mean, it wasn't quite like that, but I wasn't thinking about art when I was doing the stuff I was doing in the Air Force for sure. But when I got out of the Air Force and I stopped flying, and then I started to get more time and I started to really enjoy it, and I was looking for something kind of that that I was excited about. When I couldn't be excited about flying jets anymore, that wasn't my thing. So what else do I like? And uh turns out I like art. I was an artistic kid, and I think it's cool when I don't know, maybe it's because I'm just from my own perspective, but I like when people find something that they can go back to. We're gonna come back to that too.

SPEAKER_04 54:54

But uh yeah, no, it's changed my photography and fishing.

SPEAKER_02 54:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:59

I am setting up a picture that I think I will draw one day.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:03

And unfortunately for the fish, sometimes I hold them too long to get the eye, to get the mandible, to get a tooth, to get a jaw, or to get the gills.

SPEAKER_02 55:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:15

I have a fish too long. So probably the unfortunate thing for the fish, but good for me. So I've got some killer shots from this year for a picture that I have planned one day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

Yeah, I find that that can be challenging as too. I like to kind of so if I have someone else with me, that always helps because it's much easier for like it's a better team sport when you're kind of trying to to do that, but it is a challenge too. You want to get something to help with the art. I was gonna say I killed a fish. That's okay. Yeah, when uh we were up in the mountains, my son was like, Can we eat one of these fish? You know, I was like, Yeah, we can do that. And um, you know, it was a cool experience. I I taught him how to gut a fish, and you know, we ate a fish, and I hadn't ate a fish in years and years, but yeah, I felt I don't know, it felt like uh it was cool. My dad taught me and I taught him, and I feel like when I'm up in the mountains, it's a little bit I don't know, more oh campfire fish.

SPEAKER_04 56:17

It's fantastic, especially if it's a tiger. Take a tiger, put it on the fire.

SPEAKER_02 56:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

Anyway, I that was a special memory that I have from catching fish up on the lakes. Some people say fly fishing or fly tying can be an art form. I'm curious, what do you consider art? And how do you think that fly fishing falls into that definition or does not?

SPEAKER_04 56:45

No, it's in flight tying, it's 3D. So you know, now you're looking all sides. You know, when you're drawing, you're only you've only got you know the one side to see. Symmetry, if you look at everything in nature, everything's very symmetrical.

unknown 57:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04 57:01

Fly tying will teach you that. So tying colors in fly tying as big as they are in art. So I think color and shape help a lot from fly tying into art.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

What's your definition of art? What do you think art is?

SPEAKER_04 57:20

Oh wow. Something I'll look at longer than just a passing glance? Something that captures you? Yeah. Okay. So I think keep going. Sorry. Oh, I've been carving more now, so now I've got 3D there where you're seeing both sides, and that's where the depth and photography have really helped to get the depth of a manible and the eye socket and the mouth and the shape. Yeah, so uh carving in our and I would compare that a little bit to fly tying where you need the symmetry to help you cast so your fly is not twirling in the air. Yeah. And so it retrieves through the water the correct way. So I think that my fly tying has helped in my carving.

SPEAKER_00 58:04

Okay. We're gonna go deep here. Do you think we've been talking about kind of like how fly fishing can influence art? So like it shapes the way we create art or the art that we make. Do you think that you can find art in fly fishing, in the act of fly fishing? How do you think that fits into that definition? The casting. The casting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:27

Yes. If you got these nice smooth, straight lines, that's your goal in casting. I see these hacks and they've got pictures, and they're posting these pictures. It's like, no, don't post a picture like that. You're doing that's not what it's supposed to look like. It's supposed to be, you know, these smooth lines. So yeah, it's smoothed out my cast a lot, and I I practice that to have it as smooth as I can get it, and that line just as straight as I can possibly get it.

SPEAKER_00 58:57

Yeah. I was fishing with a friend up in Idaho, and it was like that. You said earlier that art is something that captures you, and first time I ever fished with this guy, uh, he's a pretty good friend of mine, and you know, he's been fishing guiding for a long time, way more experienced than me, but I was just mesmerized. I was just watching him cast, like, dude, how are you doing that? You know? And I just watched him cast for a while, and he was catching fish too. And it wasn't it was just really it was beautiful. So I think that that is a good example of is the cast, and the there's the rhythm of the cast, and it's almost like it can be like musical or you know, music is art, right? And the the rhythm and the way that you cast, I think, is a good example of that. So all right, good answer. I'm trying to incorporate some more art like questions into my podcast. So I appreciate you coming along with me on this one. Uh I got another art one for you before we kind of move on to some of those the bags and the gear that we talked about earlier. If there was gonna be uh, let's say a picture over your fireplace, a painting. A painting, all right. So there's already one. Maybe you can tell me about that one. But I was gonna say if you were gonna put uh a giant fly fishing painting above your fireplace, what would it be of? And like what is the emotion you'd be trying to capture that you look at when you see that?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:25

Well, number one, and I've got I've got a two-answer question or two answer. Two part answer. Good. All right. Two part answer. First, what bugs me in fish art is when there's a fisher standing there in the water. A fly fisherman or a woman or something. They got there before you did. It's a gorgeous stretch of water, it's where you want to be, and there's somebody standing there.

unknown 1:00:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:52

So my art of a river or a fishing is nobody there. There's no one in it. Study it, yeah. Okay, I can look at how I would approach that hole, how I would fish it, I can give it a lot of thought. If there's somebody there, my thought is throw a rock in the river and them and walk away.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:09

Okay, so you want to imagine the emotion of solitude and exploration in this art? Is it gonna be a piece of water, not a fish? It'll be like a piece of water.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:20

Yeah, oh crap. Yeah, and I have probably more fish in my heart hanging up. But uh yeah, I and I I like looking at both. I like looking at a nice fish that uh somebody has drawn or painted that it's just fun to look at. They chose really good colors. 80 Maddox. I love her colors, she's got a great color scheme. So sometimes the colors of a fish or where the fish might live. You know, those are yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:54

She's great, she's awesome. She's actually I had her as a guest on the podcast a while back, so I'll link to that in the show notes for people if they want to listen to that and kind of get her take on fly fishing and also her her take on art and how she thinks about art was super meaningful for me. Just be able to ask her questions, and then you know, she's been a huge I don't know if she wants me to say this, but she's been a huge mentor or example, or she's been very helpful to me and my kind of art.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:27

She's got two different styles.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:29

She's very generous with her yeah, time, I guess. Knowledge, yeah, knowledge, and she's helpful. And um, yeah, I really I I dig her. She's been and she her art is amazing, like you said. All right, so if you've got this painting, it's gonna be over the fireplace, it's gonna be of a piece of water that you're kind of imagining you can pick apart, and uh there's not anyone else in it. It's gonna be it's gonna evoke this emotion of, yeah, I want to go check that place out.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:57

Yeah, so that was the first part of the answer. What I have above my fireplace right now, uh photographer named Jeremy Allen. Uh he's he also guides on the Provo. Great guy. Jeremy asked me if I would show up on the Provo River at two o'clock in the afternoon to cast. And I took my favorite casting rod, I took a fluorescent orange fly line that could be seen. Yeah. And we went to the river and he wanted to photograph me casting. Wow. He did a picture that he timed it just right. I'm very proud of this picture, this cast. Yeah. It's not really long, it's about a 50, 60 foot cast, maybe. Yeah. But the loop is perfect.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:40

It looks well, that's what we talked about earlier with the art, right? It's a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:44

There is not a waiver in the line. My stop position on the rod's perfect, so I enlarge that. So I've got a giant one of that above my fireplace. Well, that's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:54

That's when you know you have arrived, ladies and gentlemen, when a fly fishing art photographer gives you a call and says, Hey, I want to take a picture of you for my art. You will be the subject.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:08

Well, I had that poster. It was done by somebody from Sage, and they gave me the poster, and that's what the poster was with somebody else.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:16

Oh.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:17

I thought, wow, I, you know, that is fantastic. I want to do that one day.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:21

Well, you didn't. Good job. Okay. Enough about art. This well, maybe this could be art, okay? So when I was reading about you, I know, you know, and I'm reading that you worked for William and Joseph and that you designed fly packs and even some awards for fly pack design and things like that. And I know we talked before the show about kind of your initial kind of before there was certain things you guys were thinking about this stuff. Why do you think it's so hard for someone to decide on what kind of fly pack TV?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:01

What's the right one?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:02

Yeah. I mean, we're gonna get into the you know, your ideas about how they should be designed or whatever, but I want to ask you this kind of more deep, broader question first because it seems so challenging. And as soon as I think I've got it, I'm like, yeah, but it doesn't work as good in the wintertime. Or yeah, but now I'm on a drift boat and I don't really want all that stuff when I'm rowing, you know, or like exactly. So is there a solution to this? Or do we just have to fight through it, or do we have to have multiple bags and just keep moving things, moving things from bag to bag? I don't like this. Tell me there's an easier way. Mickey, tell me that there's a better way.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:39

So when I started, everybody wore a vest. Right. Yeah, and there was you know a ton of pockets on it, but you love you lose things, which pockets it in, you have to dig through every single pocket to find it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:50

So I started because I didn't like best, and I loved small streams, and best were in the way. I couldn't, I it they held more than I needed. So I thought, all right, what's the very minimum amount I can take with me? And how big is that? If I laid all that out, how big is it? And then when you're on a small stream, sometimes you're you're not in a position to be able to reach around and unzip stuff and look look for stuff. It needs to be you know really handy. So there was nothing like that, and that was what started me thinking is how easy is it to get your stuff and how much do you need to carry?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:31

Right, because time is important too. I need to write a blog post about this, but everything adds up to time on the water. And I don't just mean like how many trips to the river, I mean how much time is your fly fishing? And when you're tying knots or you can't find something, or you're dropping a fly box, or you know, it's just you gotta reach around, now I gotta move things around. That's all adding up, little tiny bits at a time. And overall, if you think about it from a pure catching fish perspective, which we don't all have to look at it that way, but if you want to catch fish, you want to optimize your time, right? And so this is one of the reasons why me and my brain thinking tactically, I want efficiency. And I hate having too much, you said held more than I needed. I don't want more than I need, I only want what I need.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:22

Right. So the next thing is if it's too hard to find or too hard to do, you're not gonna do it. You're gonna stay with a bad setup too long because it was too hard for you to make the change, and so you're not gonna do it. You'll just stick with what you've got. And maybe you'll find the village idiot fish that'll reward you for your dumb decision, but you won't do it if it's too hard to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:49

Yeah, that's a good point. So these two ideas kind of shaped you into developing this uh, I guess the chess pack is was your solution. Right. And do you still fish with a chess pack? I do. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:02

I do. I uh in fact, I've got an idea for a new one. I uh had a saltwater trip this year that I designed a pack for saltwater fishing. Fabulous. I couldn't be happier with the performance of it. I want to turn over some of those. ideas into maybe a new design on my freshwater pack. It'll just be mine. I've got an industrial sewing machine in my garage so I can do all this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:24

I've got scrap and material and I've got so much I have a lot of ideas too so maybe we can go into business together and make a million dollars selling the new perfect fly pack chest thingy. It's just there's always a new one man. It's always coming up. But I feel like there's always a new one because everyone is always still searching. They're still like like I don't know maybe this one is the answer. You know like let me buy another one. I have hopefully nobody is this isn't getting old but I I mean it's just it's something I think about a lot. I mean so we're going to keep talking about this because I'm fascinated. So the important thing is not to take more than you need but you kind of have to have some room right because sometimes you need more than other times. That's correct I'm trying to avoid different things for different situations. And I know it's not completely possible. That's kind of why I like having a fly lanyard too. So any whatever I'm doing I I I almost always have a fly fishing lanyard as well because if I'm on a drift boat I don't want a chest pack typically or I'll just put the lanyard on and then I can reach down to my bag or my vest or whatever it is whatever year it is that I'm whatever experimenting with. So I like a lanyard for that. Do you have any thoughts on lanyards? You don't like them you do?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:47

No so I actually got into designing a few lanyards. What I did that was different on mine is if you've ever worn a wet rag on your neck on a really hot day, yeah. That's the back of my lanyard.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:59

Okay. So you can get it wet?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:01

Yeah I can get it wet or I can roll it yeah unroll it and then keep the the sun off my neck and maybe off the back of my head too by tucking it up under my hat.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:11

Okay. And is this like your personal thing that you've made for yourself?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:16

We need to stop talking about this because we don't want to give away our business ideas. We don't want anyone to steal this and patent it before we get to it. No that's a really good idea yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:27

Yeah so no lanyards are great because everything's right there.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:31

So that was what kind of led into the pack design that Rising is still selling was the lanyard idea. Everything needs to be outside and accessible. So floating forceps clippers tip of material all that needs to be on the outside where with one hand you can access it or access it. So that's just the same as a lanyard. It's right there. It's hanging right there.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:57

It's easy to get at so that was like lanyards and you mentioned a packet rising that you helped design or you did design I guess. Yeah is there I want to get back to the lanyards but I don't want to get past this I'll forget if we don't this is how my brain works sorry but if you're going to recommend this kind of approach some people are listening their curiosity is piqued by this conversation and I'm sure others are like nah I'm a vest guy no if you're listening to this and you're like nah I'm a vest guy or nah I'm a hip pack guy or gal or whatever like good for you. Like I am so happy for you that you have landed on the thing that works for you. But maybe this conversation is more for people that haven't landed on it. But do you recommend like do you have something that's out on the market that isn't just what Mickey made in for him for him to fish with that someone you would recommend or a style or it doesn't have to be the one that rising is but what is it I'm interested in the one that rising you're talking about but you know it's just any old chess pack will do or what are you looking for that you need to have the one that I designed is called the flask pack.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:10

And it they didn't use the advertising the way that I'd hope it's a flask it holds enough to get you through the day. So that was where the name came from anyway there are a lot of them and uh a lot of the guides need so many fly boxes and extra things that most of the guides are using fanny packs. Yeah and they they can slide them around to the front and dig through and find out what they need. The front and back chest packs are really good because again for the amount of gear I would say lay out what you think is the absolute minimum that you want with you all the time. And then find something that will match that.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:51

Yeah let's look at the truth data here. Let's see what do we need. And then now you're not kidding yourself right like I might think that Jason doesn't need or all this stuff but when I line it all out on the table I'm like yeah maybe the flask pack isn't what I need you know like I either have to change the way that I fish because I want to have less stuff or maybe sorry dude like you thought you were this but you're not you're really this you know so that's a good that's a good idea to kind of be realistic and help you be realistic is kind of lay it all out there. Yeah. And I'm better too about there's certain fly boxes I just don't take you know if it's winter I'm not bringing my chubby Chernobyl little right uh container or or things like that probably okay so you want everything accessible on the outside you only want it to kind of hold what you need with just a little bit of extra room we talked about lanyards would you use a lanyard with a pack or if you got this you kind of throw the lanyard out we're not going to use it lineard today.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:57

Uh yeah it because it does the same thing a lanyard does plus hold my fly boxes.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:01

Yeah I think that's that to me is a good kind of trade-off because a lanyard you're not transferring lots and lots of different stuff right you've got your tippet you can even have a few flies I have a little fly box that hangs from mine so if I go on a fly fishing trip or whatever or I'm fishing I'll just take a few flies and put them in there and then maybe my hit pack lays in the boat but I'm not going into that for a bunch of flies because I know I'm fishing sow bugs on the bighorn and that's that's what I'm fishing right now. So I'm not I don't need to change it up a ton, you know. So you can get a lot out of a lanyard but you can't carry a ton of stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:38

You don't have storage right yeah and so when I design the the pack I'll wear it as a chest pack if I'm going to wade deep or if I want something with it. But I set up a strap system on the back so I can wear it on my belt and that's where I wear it probably 90% of the time. It'll also go on the sternum strap of the backpack. So I don't have to take my backpack off to get any of my fishing stuff if I'm hiking around a lake.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:04

Oh okay so you can kind of like strap it and attach it to either different things. Exactly. And that's built into this flask pack that you're talking about or just any of these kind of yeah okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:14

No it's it's built into mine none of the others do that. And it's such a simple thing but people don't do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:21

Shh you've got I mean these are great ideas what I mean we need to get you back with rising we talk to these guys writing sold.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:33

Oh did they yeah yeah so it's now just an import company that's out Idaho Falls so it's not what it was when it was here I was sewing water bottle holder and I sewed bags and I sewed the net holsters. Yeah so all that was made here and a lot of it was sewn by me but then I had to teach somebody how to do it but now it's all imported.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:55

Did you learn sewing out of necessity based on your fly fishing business? It wasn't like I have this skill set from childhood that my mom taught me it was just like I gotta make this stuff so how do I how do I do it? That's awesome. All right okay so the flask pack is something that you would recommend it's kind of hitting at least most of the things that you're talking about. Yeah. How do you incorporate or what are ways that you think are efficient ways to incorporate a net into your system and the assumptions are you don't want a lot of different things. I know they have things that can go on your back now and they have things that go on your belt and they have magnets and lanyards and how do you approach that with all your experience and like what do you think are the pros and cons or what do you like and why do you like it?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:46

No I I use a net a lot. I think it shortens the fight I think that's better for the fish. You can leave the fish in the water with a net so I do use a net but I crawl a lot I'm down on my hands and knees I'm crawling I'm going through bushes and stuff. So I don't like one that can flop around so the magnet on the top where it hangs from your back works but then your net's all over the place you don't know where it is. So I thought I want to have it on my belt and right against my back. If you do that and you try to slide around a pack or even my little pack, my flask pack, I slide on my belt, the net's in the way if it's tucked in there and it isn't very comfortable. So I thought all right I've got to find a way to make it comfortable and hold it right against my back. And I still use the magnets but I do it in a different place. So I I I'm taking credit for this too I made the very first net holster and your net tucks into that you grab it out and the magnet pops loose if you do need to drop it there's a retention cord still on your net to your belt so you don't lose your net but I wanted something that stayed tight so as I walk through bush and stuff it's not getting hung up. And that was where that came from.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:59

So this is a net holster that goes on your belt on it is it's the belt and it's on my back. Okay. Is this the one that rising has I guess the yes it's a little bit wider than some of them. Some of them are like this narrow kind of sheath or holster more like a gun holster. Right. So the one that you are talking about is more like a wide kind of it's a strap.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:21

It's bigger and wider it seems yeah the one that we built rising we put on our own belt so that if you don't have a waiting belt you can use that as your waiting belt and you can move it around. So the very first one I did was more like what you see everybody making now. That's what all the other manufacturers saw they all the reps watched me fish with it and then they just started coming out. The more narrow one the more kind of more smaller yeah all right so the guys at Rising said hey we like to use long handle nets. That's not going to work with a long handle net it's going to drag you're going to kick it it has to be able to be put at an angle so Dylan Rothwell the owner of Rising he and I started making prototypes and we put a long handle net in it because rising mostly makes nets we went outside and we shook and moved and did all kinds of things to come up with a holster that would hold a long handle net the sideways and wouldn't fall out. So if you look at the straps on our holster the straps are on the outside not on the inside everybody else's is on the inside. By putting it on the outside it keeps that big net from falling away from your body.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:36

It'll hold it in but it's still really comfortable when it's against your back.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:40

Will it work for a short handled net too?

SPEAKER_04 1:19:42

Oh you don't it's really good for short handle the long handles the like the guides use it because they can have it at an angle and doesn't get in the way when you're casting if you're sitting down it's not in the way. Okay. So uh ours is the only one that does that too.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:57

And this is what you use today? Yes. But it's not attached so you have two things you have a chest pack and you have a separate holster thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:04

Yes that holster is movable. Yeah uh right hand left hand you could position it to one side more than the other.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:11

Yeah because I've seen them up on your back they're like sticking up above people's heads you know like I've seen those and I haven't tried that I guess to be fair but I don't know I don't know if that's gonna work for me either. Okay. Cool. I wrote down some other questions here. Have your preferences changed over the years? Like how did this evolve a little bit like I used to always be this or you kind of found a solution early. You said I don't like these vests. I want something different I'm gonna learn how to sew. I'm gonna make this thing and you've kind of found what works for you and you like it.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:46

Yeah so what changed now is uh line management I do have a lot of stuff that sticks out my tippet holder I can put up to seven spools of tippet on the holder that comes with the pack that sticks out a little bit uh everything else is kind of tucked in the pockets yeah but it's I've got elastic strap to hold the floatants in I'll I'll carry two different kinds of floatants yeah the elastic eventually wears out and it's hard to change so my new thoughts are an easier repair when that elastic goes bad a tippet holder that is so cool it works so great in the saltwater. So a new tippet holder that doesn't catch your line because that's critical saltwater fishing you get one shot you you need to make an 80 foot cast right so tool management repair and tippet management too so that's become more important and and smaller and less more streamlined do you think yeah okay so it's it's smooth it's it's cool. Alright so yes the preferences are changing a little bit still the the the amount I know what I want to take with me I don't need any more than that a better way of taking the same amount.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:05

And I think for me I've tried chest pack before but I think it was too stuck out too far. It was like this big thing that stuck out and I'm like this is kind of in the way man like I don't I know they make different kinds though I I know what you're talking about it's like a little more streamlined and but if it's just going to stick way out like I was like why am I doing this? Because yeah my arms are more free on the side but I have all this stuff in front in my sticking up and if you double haul cash you can pull your line right across it. Yeah yeah it started to be a problem with casting and line management and things yeah so and that's why I wear mine on my belt and most of the time mine is behind me so that nothing can catch on it. So you're wearing it like a backpack or you just hook it to your belt? More like a fanny pack. Okay yeah that's what I use I use like a fanny pack thing that's kind of behind me with a lanyard in the front. So I only have to switch that fanny pack around for like very rarely should I have to move it around because I have everything on my lanyard but okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:06

Yeah and I I change flies so often I needed quick access to flies. I'll fish six flies in one hole on a river.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:13

I don't know if I'm any closer to a solution than when we first started talking I mean I was really hoping to be okay I'm gonna go buy this and I'm done but I think the answer unfortunately for everyone is still it depends right because some people but I guess keep searching guys and gals keep looking but I think these considerations we talked about are are certainly important and I really like the idea of being honest with yourself looking at what you need and then finding something that will at least hold the stuff that you need you know because I don't know that I'm completely honest with myself on some of that stuff. Part of what I think about a lot and why I kind of started wait out there or one of the themes of the show if there is a theme I guess is going back to the things that are special to you, important, the times and places that kind of resonate, they stick in your mind and when you're busy and you're like what do I need to do today or tomorrow and like do I have time to get out and do that? These are the things that motivate you to keep going back. Do you have something like that an idea or a memory an image that kind of sticks in your brain that kind of anchors your fly fishing experience? Like for me my anchor or my go back kind of would be this image I have of me and my father fishing for cutthroat in Montana starting a fire on the bank because I'm cold, warming my hands up my dad kind of like I don't know comforting me or just kind of keeping me safe while I'm splashing these cutthroat and the cottonwoods and stuff like that's my thing. I don't know what else to call it except to like call it like my go back you know do you have something like that?

SPEAKER_04 1:25:10

No, because it's I I fish a minimum a hundred days a year. So it's it's all the different experiences. I do like small streams if I could only choose one way to fish it'd be small streams but I do like the big rivers Euro Nymphy just totally fascinates me and and how fast it's evolving and everything going through on that and wanting to to get back on the water to try a different idea something that I just thought of and then lake fishing with strawberry coming up the memories of all the days I've spent at strawberry lake fishing and all the other reservoirs but mostly strawberry. So no I I don't have one it's more I don't know more the attack more the attack yeah what do you mean the I know it shouldn't be that way everybody goes oh it's just so nice to be out there and be out in nature and enjoying nature that's crap if you catch a fish it is a whole lot better than if you get skunk.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:15

Yes for sure yes I'm I'm uh I'm on board with that I would rather catch fish than not catch fish and I do think there's a lot of like well oh how how was fishing did you catch oh no but it was just nice to be out there like that I get okay dude all right you can only say that so many times and then it's like why are you going fishing? You got you gotta catch some fish here. You know I definitely get that I just didn't know sometimes people have that but it sounds like for you it's more of like uh just the all the different experiences combined that's fair. Mickey I want to start wrapping things up we've been talking a while um I know that you're still teaching you're still instructing you're going to teach some fly tying classes tonight it's just a group I'm not really teaching but there are people that ask for help. So yeah anybody who's invited to it but yes I yes I do no I don't how can people find out more about you or can they follow along or kind of like get involved in some of the things or is there anything that you would want them to and if you want to be left alone that's okay too we don't have to put anything out there.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:23

No that's my problem right now is I'm ready to get on my horse and ride off into the sunset. No don't leave us Mickey I teach at the the Wasich Expo okay I did five different classes last year. If they invite me back I'll be doing that. I'm on our blue ribbon committee and there's like 45 different blue ribbon waters in Utah and I represent the commercial side of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:49

Uh if you have a you know question or a comment on how fishing's going you can come to me at the store on Mondays at Fish Tech on Mondays only.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:58

And I'd be I'd love to take that to the committee uh what your proposal is or your ideas are okay I do volunteer work with our fishing games so a lot of times you'll see me there. I do talks for most of our fly clubs. If they invite me back another day's come they're not going to invite me back anymore but no I'd I'd like to give talks.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:19

Well we can link to some of that stuff in the show notes for people too so they can find out about it and we'll make sure we get the right links and um yeah. Yeah as far as the regular teaching where I set up a day that I'm going to teach a class I quit doing that okay so if you are interested in fly fishing and you're part of any kind of club or you're going to any kind of expo there's a good chance you'll see Mickey there. I'm around okay that's fair Mickey last question. Are you ready? Yeah if you could go back to when you first started fly fishing and give yourself two pieces of advice one more tactical and one more philosophical what would you tell yourself to help you progress as a fly fisher don't ever think you know enough don't ever get satisfied with the position that you're in there is always something there that you can learn by watching somebody else by reading something by listening to advance your game I think that I I got snooty at first I was a pretty good caster I was a good fly tire and I thought I'm done I don't need anymore and I didn't give myself the chance to advance to listen to somebody so listening to what other people are offering to give you is huge for everybody even a brand new fish if they have a question wow I've never even thought of that before so don't get complacent and think that you know enough you don't I don't that's good advice for fly fishing and life I think yeah yeah correct how about tactically fresh fish move on yeah yeah even though you think you gotta figure it out and everything's going right and you think there should be a fish there if there's not and you're not no no no change change change your fly change your leader the most flies I put on one hole last year was 13 flies in one hole until I caught a fish I felt like my approach was good that I didn't spook it that fish wasn't nervous right and I started changing flies I went through 13 before I caught it and now I've got a fly that turned out to be fantastic for the rest of the day.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:53

Yeah so change.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:55

Yeah that makes sense that's because they're kind of counterintuitive ideas the idea of change and then the idea of move on right because your initial answer was like keep moving. Yeah but then you gave me an example of change so you stayed put so maybe what you do need to do is you need to change you need to go to new water. Yeah but maybe you just need to change find that fly yeah if you made it if you're confident in your approach and you feel like you didn't spook those fish yeah chances are they're gonna hit when you finally figure them out. All right. Mickey thank you so much it's been a pleasure talking to you and we'll link to that stuff in the show notes so people hopefully they can find you at some of these events that you're going to I really appreciate all you've done today teaching again still teaching and you know your influence in fly fishing in Utah and all the selfish little questions that I got to ask too it was fun. Yeah thank you so much for being on the show I really enjoyed it. Thanks for having me to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories and artwork check out my blog and online gallery at WadeOutthere.com If you want to make Wade Out there a part of your own fly fishing journey please subscribe and share. Until next time Wade Out There