WOT 244: Alex Emery - Part 2. Dry Fly Hatches on the Yellowstone River

In this episode we WadeOutThere for Part 2 of our conversation with Alex Emery, from Livingston, Montana. Alex started fly fishing as a child with his father in New Jersey and continued during school at West Virginia University, becoming involved with the fly fishing club as well.  

After college, Alex’s search to continue his passion for fly fishing, and build a life and career connected to the outdoors brought him to Sweetwater Travel Company Guide School, on the Bighorn River in Montana.  Alex went on to become a guide on the Yellowstone River and surrounding area for over eight years.  Alex has been a guest on the podcast before.  Since the last time we talked, he's started his own outfitter, Livingston Trout Guides.  

We discuss summer underated and exciting dry fly fishing and hatches on the Yellowstone River.

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LivingstonTroutGuides.com
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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

In this episode, we wait out there for part two of our conversation with Alex Emery from Livingston, Montana. Alex started fly fishing as a child with his father in New Jersey and continued during school at West Virginia University, becoming involved with the fly fishing club as well. After college, Alex's search to continue his passion for fly fishing and build a life and career connected to the outdoors brought him to Sweetwater Travel Company Guide School on the Bighorn River in Montana. Alex went on to become a guide on the Yellowstone River and surrounding area for over eight years. Alex has been a guest on the podcast before. Since the last time we talked, he started his own outfitter, Livingston Trout Guides. We discussed some of the underrated and exciting dry fly fishing and hatches on the Yellowstone River. Welcome to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Shefchuk. At Wade Out There, we believe fly fishing is special, but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to wait out there. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Looking at a hatch chart.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

You're looking at it right now. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Well, let's dive right into it, Alex, and get into these dry flies. We're not going to cover all the dry flies, and we're not going to cover all the hatches. Um, but we're going to focus on the Yellowstone River and talk about here's the way I thought we would break this up. Okay. You let me know what you think. But I I I thought it would be kind of fun to, you know, instead of saying like this one, this one, this one. Maybe we could go into like categories uh of of of hatches that that hold meaning for you. So for example, I'll just give you the list. All right. I thought we could talk about the hatch that you think is most underrated.

unknown 2:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

The hatch that is like the most prolific or popular. Okay. Um maybe like the shortest duration hatch. Um the longest duration hatch. And then uh your favorite. And these can be the same too. So if we get to one that's the same, you could just be like, no, same as this one.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

And then maybe I will say, Jason, there's not a whole lot more bugs than what we've touched on already. It's mostly at that point, it just turns into like hoppers, ants, and beetles.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

That's fine.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

We can talk about blue wings again in the fall.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

So I mean there'll be a lot of repeats. That's okay. Um maybe the hardest to fish.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Is that cool?

unknown 3:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

We'll see where we'll see where it goes. All right. I've got some questions that we can talk about. Um before we keep going, do you have many Mayflies? Do you talk? I mean, is there many Mayflies?

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Yeah, we got drakes, we got uh March Browns. Uh and then we'll have we'll get green drakes.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

In the summer though.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Yeah, green drakes are those things will come off in uh in the summer.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Okay. Alright, yeah. I mean, I think we have enough. So again, this isn't an inclusive list. This is just kind of the list of those types of things. So we'll start with uh the most underrated hatch. What do you think is, in your opinion, one of the more underrated summer hatches on the Yellowstone?

SPEAKER_00 3:53

One of the most overlooked hatches on the Yellowstone is probably the green drake. Um it's in company with some of the bigger bugs, you know, like the Golden Stones salmon flies. Uh kind of overlooked because you know the goal uh the Golden Stones salmon flies tend to have a little bit of a bigger bug that you can throw out there, a big foam fly. Um, but that being said, you know, if you put a parachute back behind there, you want to be fishing double dries. Um that that green drake hatch can yield some of the nicest fish that I see all year as well. Uh for whatever reason, you know, you could be fishing a hopper or uh excuse me, a a chubby for a golden stone or a salmon fly with one of those uh parachutes behind it during that time of year. And it seems like the nicer fish will tend to eat that parachute, the smaller bug. Why I have no idea, but um for whatever reason, that's probably one of the most overlooked hatches out here. It's not something where you're gonna show up and see an absolute blanket, um, but being aware that they're around um can go a long way. It takes a little bit for the fish to forget about them. Um, you know, you might not be seeing them, you might not be out there when it's happening, but ultimately they are fish, pea-brained fish, and it takes them a little bit of time to forget about that stuff. Uh so you know, putting it in their face and giving them the option doesn't hurt.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

I'm gonna ask you a lot of questions, and this okay for you to have some I don't I'm not sure is in there, but do you is there temperature? Because like I think about temperature a lot now when I think about the hatch part, right? We we in the last episode we talked about there's lots to it, but when when what time of year really I feel like I'm asking what temperature am I looking at for these hatches, you know.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

So, you know, I'm gonna go ahead and just kind of estimate this one for post-runoff. You know, I know the caddis, that magic number is 15, 54. Um, I bet you that you know, the golden or the the salmon flies is probably mid to high 50s. Um, and that would probably be the same with the Golden Stones and the Green Drakes. Um those things all seem to correlate. Uh, and and same with blooming olives that uh so that's earlier in the year then.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

So that that's that temperatures we're gonna see those hatches earlier in the summer, um, the ones you just mentioned. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Exactly. June, um well, let's say late June through July. Early July.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Yeah, yeah. Um and then um where on the river, like, and I don't know if this is different for different ones, but like for the green drake, since we're on that, are you fishing the banks, the middle? Like, where would you uh like observation-wise, where are you looking or where are you planning on targeting, or is that same as everything, dude? It's just kind of like uh along the banks, or does it change?

SPEAKER_00 6:43

I mean, with the Yellowstone being the river that it is, it is a lot of a bank game, you know. Um, we've mentioned this a few times already with the amount of current that pushes through that middle of the river. Um, you know, I guarantee you there's fish in there. Um, but we're we're playing a game of odds. Um, so you know, our best odds, our best bet is probably to get to that bank where that water is is giving them a little bit of a break. Um, I like to really look for the drop-offs, transition water, um, you know, shallow to deep. Those fish tend to kind of push right up to those drop-offs. Um they'll also uh you know, from time to time, I fish around. There if the water looks a little bit like uh like a bank, but it's not the bank, I'm gonna give it a shot. You know, it's that similar depth, similar uh, similar flow. Um I mean that's that's the biggest thing that I've I feel like I could touch on on in this whole episode is you know, once you catch a fish in one spot, remember what that water looks like. Remember what you did. I mean, there's nothing uniform about a river. I mean, fish can move around wherever the heck they want. If they find that spot that looks like the bank, they might have that place to themselves. You know, they might it might be a good spot for a bigger fish. Um uh really just trying to remember what that water looked like, the character of that water, and just rinse and repeat and and fishing around.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Yeah, you bring up a good point. I mean, it's it's not just where the bugs are, it's more like where the fish at, and then there's bugs around, so it's that combination.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Bugs are everywhere.

unknown 8:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Bugs are truly everywhere. I mean, millions and millions and millions. Uh, you know, a lot of these insects are living as the nymph for about four to five years, you know. So you can imagine if that's the case, how many would accumulate down there? Um just to just to come out and emerge and and live for a few days in order to mate and die. It's it's pretty pretty wild.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

With the green Drake you mentioned along the banks, but certain flies it seems to be more important to be like right on the bank or uh credit card close is a term that I've used a lot that I I picked up from Jenny West. Jenny West is out on the bitter route, but uh does it have to be super super close like that, credit card close, or is it always better to be closer, or when does it not matter as much? And I guess this is expand beyond the the green drakes, but what's your opinion on that?

SPEAKER_00 9:11

My biggest thing is leave it. Just leave it, you know. If you're gonna especially fishing out of the boat, if you're gonna pick it up and cast three times to get it perfect, then you just sold yourself out and that spot's gone. Leave it there. Like we said, those fish are moving around and and if it's a bigger bug, they'll move for that thing. They're not seeing them all day, every day. Um I I always when in doubt, you're trying to get it to that drop off. It's not necessarily or or there's a s there's a particular piece of character that you want to get at. Uh your guide's telling you to put it in a particular spot. But at the end of the day, I think you know, putting it down and being, ah, that's not perfect, picking it up, putting it down, picking it up, putting it down, you just sold yourself out. I mean, uh you're way better off on on convincing that fish to move a little bit than you are to give them the perfect line after you just told them that you're a fly.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Right. Well, yeah, and you can't catch fish if your fly's not in the water, so there's an odds game. I'm a big believer in that. I'm not the best at it, but by any means, but I am a big believer in everything I can do to include like the the efficiency to which I tie my knots, like how I how fast I change rigs, um, how fast I how efficient. I shouldn't say fast, I should say how efficient I am on the river. Like that's all time. You know, with my that's all time fishing, which I I just feel better when I'm fishing, you know, like uh versus doing other stuff. It can be frustrating when you're pulling flies out of trees and stuff, but like I said, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

I don't know it's nail the most frustrating. Yeah, no, exactly. I mean, I you go out there with anybody. I mean, I bet you you could go out there with Joe Humphreys and he'd end up in the in the tree at some point. Um it's just it's it's part of the sport. It's it's all fun.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Sometimes all right. Green Drakes. Um Emergers, so uh and nymphs, are there any nymphs and emergers that you think of or use when you're or do you just kind of use those as a dry fly behind, or do you ever fish the other life cycles of that fly?

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Absolutely. I mean, to tell you the truth, I probably fish the other life cycles more than the dry fly. Um uh particularly particularly the nymph stage. Um, you know, I'll throw probably a soft tackle pheasant tail jig head off the back of my um my dry fly if I'm throwing a bigger salmon fly or a golden stone. Um, or I'll put that fly down below, maybe a rubber leg underneath an indicator. Um, you know, I always like to do CDC or soft hackle on my bugs. One because uh they just look fishy. And two, because I I like the way they act in the water, you know, they're always pulsating, undulating. Um and and as you fish it, you know, maybe you're making amend or or your client or or you yourself, you're not getting the perfect drift. Um, and it's starting to drag a little bit, maybe come up out of that, come up to the water column, and uh it's looking like an emerger at that point. So um, you know, just I mean it's it's really a no-frills pheasant tail with maybe just a little bit of a hot spot on it behind the bead, um, with a little bit of CDC. That's probably my number one workhorse fly, truthfully. Um for the green Drake or just for all kind of like just just all you know, since those mayflies are always in the water.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Um and and Mayflies are kind of periodically throughout the summer, um they're they're transitioning to different bugs and and coming off. Um so they're always active. You know, that profile is always relevant to these fish. Um you know, for whatever reason it's you know, a size 14 or a size 12. I don't have to get too crazy with it, and that thing that thing works, let's say, from right now through October.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Nice. Yeah, I think that's I mean, important the distinction you make as well is that it's not necessarily a green Drake emerger or a green Drake nymph or you know, that we need it's a Mayfly, so there's generic type flies like a pheasant tail that imitates the these various different bugs, right? So you don't have to have for each one for each thing kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

I'm a big fan of these bugs that you know kind of sprawl uh uh or these flies that that cover a wide range of of hatches or of of nymphs that could be in the water or dries. Um you know, the big thing that I try to tell people it could be very overwhelming to walk into a fly shop when you're getting started and look at the thousands of flies that are in there and think that you have to remember, you know, what each one of those means. At the end of the day, if you can break it down to a stonefly, a midge, a caddis, and a mayfly, um, really that's all you need to know. Um if you know the distinct characteristics of that and you see one of those on the water and you say, Okay, that's a mayfly, you should be able to look into your box and say, Okay, that looks like a mayfly. And then you're cooking. You know, I mean it doesn't matter if you know the Latin terms or um what the cool kids at the fly shop say or anything like that. I mean, it's just it's ultimately if you if you know that you have a mayfly, a midge, a stonefly, and a caddis, then you should you're probably ready for anything.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Yeah, and also in the different f uh stages of life, right? Like this is a dry fly caddis, and this is an emerging caddis, and this is an emergen and this is a caddis nymph, right? So you can you can fish a bobber with a a nymph and an emerger or some sort of rig like that and kind of cover the water column, and then hey, guess what? Now the cats are coming off, and now it can be dry fly fishing and you that entire process that I described is fishing a caddis hatch, right? It's or it's it's fishing the the caddis. I mean, I guess it's however you define hatch, but you get what I'm saying, right? Like it's you're fishing like the whole bug the whole time.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Right. I think uh a lot of people get hung up on a hatch being just that cycle, just that particular stage where it's on the surface of the water where you can see them emerging and and the fish coming up and eating them. But in reality, there's different stuff going on before then that you cannot see. So being uh, you know, one of the first things I'll do if I'm going to a river I'm unfamiliar with is find my myself a hatch chart online. Uh see what bugs are most relevant to that time of the year when I'm gonna be there. Um that way when I get to the river and and there's no hatch coming off, I still know which bugs are active in the river and I'm prepared for that.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

And you know what to look for. You're like, okay, I should be looking for mayflies or caddis or uh midges or something, and then okay, I'm I'm if I'm not seeing it, then I can switch to subsurface and have a clue, like you said. But if I'm if they're on the surface, then you have a better idea as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Another cool thing you could do around Mayfly hatches, you know, if you know they're going on, um picking up some rocks and and you know, looking at the nymphs, if if that thorax, you know, right behind its head is super dark, almost black, um, that's telling you that I, you know, I I bet you that afternoon you're gonna see that bug hatch. Um you start seeing their wings form underneath that thorax, and when they get real dark, they're they're just getting ready to hatch. And that'll tell you that, you know, to get ready for that, maybe head to the fly shop and grab some dries if you didn't get one, if you don't have them already. Be ready for that.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Well, I just I just bring my fly tying kit in my backpack, dude, and I just spin them up right then and there, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Got all the color you're working harder than me.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Uh yeah, no, I don't do that. No, I I definitely do not do not do that. I could barely tie flies in my house at my desk with a whiskey. Like, I'm not gonna be doing that. Uh all right. Good. That was good. So back to the green Drake. Is there any kind of sizes, colors, profiles that stand out to you that you like when you I mean, we just talked about like how it doesn't matter that much, but is there something that you like to use for the dry fly?

SPEAKER_00 17:32

For the Drakes on the Yellowstone, uh kind of uh pretty partial to a brindle parachute. Um is pretty much just a you know a traditional um atoms, but it's tied with a little bit of a different dubbing, uh a little bit lighter. Um you could also get away with a what are they a copper haze, it's called. Um same thing, 1214. Uh copper haze is is uh exactly what it sounds like, a purple haze, except it's copper.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

And I bet you could catch one on a parachute atoms.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Exactly. I mean I've got Facebook Google, I mean, literally any any that's the thing, man. I mean, I don't that's what I use, you know. You could walk down the a line of of guides who all let's say caught the same amount of fish that day and every fit every fly was different, you know. So um I it's it's truly something that I always tell people what you're confident in, stick with it, whether it's your knots, whether it's your flies, confidence is huge, you know. No, know what you've got and and um you know get familiar with it.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

Alright. Let's move on. Um I'm gonna skip some of these other ones. I'm gonna move to what's the hardest uh hardest one to fish, if there is one. Does anything stand out as like this is tricky, trickiest on the Yellowstone?

SPEAKER_00 18:53

I would do you want me to get I would say the like the salmon flies, but we kind of really dove into that one again.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

What makes it hard? I don't we didn't this salmon fly f uh salmon fly uh hatch can be a little bit tricky because of how big the river still is. Okay. Um so you know it's you're not really fish. I mean uh in your definition of a hatch, it's great, it's easy. But uh like for dry flies it's not. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Yeah, yeah, it makes a lot of sense because you're talking about it's yeah, I assume the water's bigger, so it's harder to mend, it's harder to control your line, it's harder to get a dry fly where it needs to be, it's harder to present it.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Um ultimately it's just hard to get them to cooperate. Like these fish are calorie counting experts, you know, they're not gonna expend the calories it takes for them to cut through that fast water to get to the surface in order to just consume one bug when they can be sitting there hoovering all of these nymphs that are just coming right up to the bank.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Right. Yeah, yeah. Okay. That's a good good answer. What's the um what's the most prolific or I guess uh popular, or maybe those are two different things. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Well the most popular hatch on the Yellowstone, which I guess technically isn't exactly a hatch, um, would be the hopper fishing. Um terrestrials on the Yellowstone, which start taking off, let's say you could start fishing them, giving them a try mid-July, but they really don't start taking off until late July, early August. Um that's really when I think a lot of folks are trying to plan their trips to come out here, uh kind of surrounding that hopper fishing. Um for a few reasons. You get some fish come up that are pretty nice to eat that dry fly. Um because it's you know, those hoppers are sitting on the water with a little bit more calories than some of those aquatic insects. Uh so these fish tend to swim a little bit further for them in order to consume those calories. The the other thing that really um I think draws people to it is because you know you're throwing a big awesome foam dry fly that just floats all gosh darn day, and you know, you can throw another fly that you really like underneath it. So the hopper dropper fishing, um I mean it's really hard to beat, to be honest. Uh on the Yellowstone, cruising down the the banks with with let's say a size 10 uh Moorish hopper with with a rubber leg underneath it, three feet or so, three or four feet, depending on where you're fishing. I mean, if I could fish like that every day, I would.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

Yeah, that's pretty cool. I think I talked to another guy about that uh over from Hatchfinders. We talked about uh Is it James? Uh it was yeah. James or Evan. It was Evan, I think. I think Evan and Evan talked about just the uh just the fun fishing of you know drug like that to me that is like the easiest, funnest, like most sunny. It's good weather. It's like big ass fly presentation. You know, isn't as doesn't it's not as critical as tiny tiny midge dry fly type of thing. You know, and right.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

I mean honestly some sort of commotion when that fly hits the water sometimes seems to trigger a trigger a strike, you know. I mean there's nothing graceful about a a grasshopper getting blown off a blade of grass and landing on a river. I mean they don't want to be on there. They're kind of making some commotion.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

All right. How about midges? Midges is one that I think a lot of people forget about. Like I'm looking at a hatch chart here and it says midges from April to October.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

So I don't know if you agree with that or not but like I mean all year really I think I see I probably see midge I've seen on the Yellowstone every month of the year at one point or another. I don't know of a lot of guys who really um focus on the midge fishing out here. You know I I I've given it a shot before Nymphs dries um maybe I'm just not very good at it but I haven't had a ton of luck. And you know my speculation is and there's no such thing as or it's not that old big fish will only eat big flies. I mean we've seen anybody who's fished has seen that that that's not true over and over again.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

But for whatever reason on this river it seems like um if they're gonna pick you know let's say a little bit of a meteor mayfly um over the midge they're gonna um well it's a freestone too right so you get the the bigger bugs and like the more opportunistic and more like I better make this count kind of fish.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Exactly well said well said I mean that that could be huge because as opposed to um let's say on a on a spring creek or on a tailwater they don't have to work nearly as hard. I mean it's just that nice easy moving river and and it doesn't hurt them as bad to swim two, three feet and and honestly there's more there's more food in that river too. They're never swimming two three feet in order to eat a midge but that stuff's just hitting them right on the nose for the most part and and and the the juice is worth the squeeze let's say in that instance is maybe it's not as much on the Yellowstone.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

So you're not even going to throw like a zebra midge or like you know like the typically you're you're nymphs and uh they're you're not really interested or I know guys who do who give it a shot from time to time. I mean it just But it's not like the plan.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

It's more like well I don't know I guess I'll tie this on you know like Exactly and honestly you want to know what I think also drives people away from it is it's probably a whitefish magnet.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

The yellow stone being being what it's wrong with whitefish man what's the problem nothing nothing but but but when you when you're getting your boat together at the end of the day and they're getting their wallet out you like to think that the trout do do you a little bit better than the whitefish yeah I mean this comes up a lot and I'm I'm not anti whitefish but you know I'm not throwing parade for him every time I go fishing and uh having a big celebration and uh I I I like I I think it's just an expectation management thing for me. It's just I think one thing is about to happen and then another thing happens.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Like if I knew you know it's like oh good nice fish nice fish and then it's like well it's a white fish so I don't know I don't know what kind of it could be not that nice of a not that big a fish or not that I mean that's the thing is some people a lot of the time you don't know till it's at the boat you know I mean it's they'll put it on you from time to time but you know it's not what people come to Montana for I guess the name of my company is Livingston Trout Guides so they might have a few questions at the end of the day if we're just catching whitefish false advertising so um you could have called it Livingston Trout and Whitefish guides but it would not have done as well I don't think it's not as good on social media either.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Yeah that makes sense have you ever seen a whitefish I I've caught a whitefish on a dry fly but does that happen much for you or ever or oh for sure I mean um we'll see it quite a bit you'll see them on stream you know you're here I'll tie this on you know let them know you know if you if you feel a fish on the other end it's probably going to be a good one with this fly and then of course the next fish is a white fish um or or you know you're tying on a dry fly and it's a hot it's hopper season and you haven't seen a white fish touch a hopper yet but eventually they start spawning a little bit earlier and will eat everything.

SPEAKER_02 29:09

Yeah they must just eat everything because I don't know what would make them come up and think that that's part of their deal is to eat dry flies but they do. I guess from time to time.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

They make it work yeah they make it work and uh of course it's always when I'm when I'm probably telling them that it's not gonna happen you know it seems to be the way yeah um any trichos any trichos out there trichos did they um they talk about some trichos I don't see a ton of them I see the uh Hakuba from time to time I think it's it's pronounced Hakuba H E C U B A.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

It's like a smaller trichot type uh mayfly that we see kind of towards the end of August um into October um I don't think it's a trichot again with all the different names that they call all these bugs and such um it could be a type of trico but I've got a question then so again I'm looking at the hatch chart here but the caddis hatch um casts are coming off like throughout the summer pretty much is that accurate yeah we'll we'll get some catus come off pretty much throughout the summer there's a little bit of a lull say so then might be starting August so then my follow-up question is then that temperature becomes really important right because they're not hatching coming up off the surface all day long um there's a part of the day where they're where the temperature of the water precludes itself to them doing that right is that happen has ever happened twice a day where the water temp comes up and comes down or because I I seem to remember fishing and be like okay it's caddis and then no caddis and then later in the day there's like an evening caddis hatch you know like can you call me out on that and be like nah dude that's not you're just you're misremembering things or can you say I think you're right I think you're right.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

I think you're right um you know a number of things could be happening there. Um one it could be a second hatch which is possibility uh you know if that temperature hits right on the way you know into the evening um secondly it's also probably a fair amount of those insects making their way back to the water in the evening to begin to lay their eggs probably the ones that came off the day or two prior uh depending on the insects so um you have that emerging stage uh that stage when they're kind of coming up out of the water getting on the surface flying away into the bushes to mate and then they'll come back uh in their egg laying stage that's when you'll kind of see them more skittering on the surface um you'll see them kind of going up and down right over the water surface before they land um laterally like that and uh yeah I mean um yeah so hoppers is uh they that's as early as July you're getting hoppers yeah I mean I'll I'll give it a go with some folks from time to time uh probably like the 20th I'll start giving it a go with with the right people you know if if I know that they're into it and they want to you know we've caught some fish and I say hey we're kind of getting close to hopper season you want to give it a go get see if we can get one to come up and eat this thing and the other cool thing about that is is you know it's the hopper makes for a great uh a a great indicator um so you know you're not just mailing it in saying you know if something doesn't eat this hopper we're screwed uh you still are fishing a a nymph underneath it beautifully um and kind of prospecting with that hopper.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

And you could be fishing a caddis nymph or a caddis emerger because you know there's there's caddis in the water.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

So absolutely I mean um you know if again we depending on which hatch is most relevant to the date that I'm on the water I will probably be correlating my nymph with said hatch.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

That makes sense so any tips on how to how you like to fish the the dropper like I've heard people talk about the importance of you know really streamlining like the the tippet you know so you're cutting through the water or you don't want to be dragging the fly behind like flies styles that you like to have like um anything you think about when you're fishing the hopper dropper that's brought you more success.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

I like um I like fishing floro. I mean I don't know how big of a deal it is but you know you hear a lot about it a little bit um skinnier diameter than mono so it'll cut through the water a little bit quicker with more strength um you know more strength against the fish um and um on top of that you know I'll also probably be fishing a little bit of a heavier fly sometimes like a Euro style jig nymph um is something that I like because of how quickly it'll just sink straight down and you know I think if if you're fishing a real heavy fly like that it's probably gonna end up straight you know as a pretty much straight up and down um probably you know it's gonna be a little bit behind the fly but for the most part that's gonna get down there pretty good. On top of that, you know also probably fishing a a soft tackle fly under as the nymph so if it is dragging a little bit you know it just gives it a little bit of emergent action. Yeah and and there are certain there are certain days where it seemed oh let's do that again like I th that was on your mend you know like clearly that wasn't a dead drift and then boom oh they're eating it on the drag you know and next thing you know it's I mean it's yeah it's pretty neat.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Everything you thought you knew every about fly fishing dead drifts dead drift dead drifts and then it's like nope never mind just kidding all right cool am I missing anything are there any uh hatches that we haven't talked about that you think are worth mentioning we talked a little bit about it when we talked about you know we could post we could talk about we could talk about uh do you have do you have anything else um because I was gonna say we could also talk about like the once the hopper fishing starts um petering out in the like you could do ants a little bit better and that's into the spawn into the brown spawn yeah we can talk about that like so yeah after hoppers are going away and ants that's another I don't know not a hatch but dry fly fishing that's good.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

There's got to be overlap there but sounds like you're saying that some of those hoppers peter off and then now we're more into ants yeah you know as the nights start to get a little bit cooler um the hoppers will start freezing overnight becoming more lethargic uh not moving around as much so late hopper season uh it also might be the fish wisening up to the to the program as well um it seems like the the hopper fishing in mid to late September early October really starts to go downhill um but you know that doesn't mean the end of dry fly fishing just yet uh because we're able to tie on you know some other terrestrial flies behind smaller black beetles ants um stuff of that nature which seems to bring them up um and they're still willing to eat uh you know you you'll kind of start noticing these fish just coming up and nosing your uh your your hopper and once that happens a few too many times and you've downsized to the smallest hopper you've got and at that point they're still nosing that downsize downsize downsize and now you're at an ant and it seems like it worked.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

So with the ant my thing with ants is man I have a hard time seeing them I mean I'm not uh the perfect caster uh but I can generally follow my cast and I mean I just have a hard time so what do you do for the guy like me that's out there and I'm like dude I don't I don't see it or is there a certain is that just get better dude and then that way you'll be better at fishing ants? I mean do you guys run into that problem as well do you have that issue?

SPEAKER_00 37:18

I mean I don't know how anyone sees these little things like some of the ones I you know like it's a black ant dude like it's it's tiny black color of the river you know right you know sometimes though real low when the light's getting low that black can can be beneficial but otherwise it's uh yeah I know I hear you generally we're fishing it behind a bigger fly um yeah that's a good whether it be you know behind one of those uh parachutes when the drakes are happening or behind uh let's say a chubby or a hopper um the cool thing about that is you know one you can see it better too they'll eat the heck out of those ants when they're when they're dunked um you might be coming through a little bit of a riffle you know that you're definitely gonna lose your your ant in but you can still see your hopper next thing you know that hopper shoots three feet underwater without you even seeing a fish and you know an ant ate that thing as it was tumbling through the current I mean I know some guys who from time to time will drop like a really tiny split shot in front of a small hopper um you know that they're they make epoxy ants ants that aren't meant to float you know the these aquatic insects will they're not swimmers they're not meant to be on there and you know they'll get kind of flushed into the current and these fish know that um so having something that'll act as an indicator when you go through that heftier current even if you can see the bug you know um outside of that heftier current you know you're you're able to see that thing just fine I mean I I'll when I'm fishing personally I'll have that bigger bug up front just just to be ready just in case that does happen. If I'm noticing picky fish uh which happens from time to time you know I'll try to make it work with just one fly but for the most part pretty good to go.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

Alright Alex we have gone from pre-runoff to post runoff to summer to ants and everything in between I think we've covered a lot probably not everything but quite quite a quite a lot so I want to start wrapping it up but before I do I've already asked you my last I've already had this last question question for you so if people want to hear what he would tell his younger self to help him progress as a fly fisher they can listen to episode 123 but uh before I ask you my new last question for you how can people find out more about you um find out more about uh living Livingston Trout guides and maybe some of the things that you're excited about coming up yeah so we've got a website uh www dot livingston trout guides dot com um it's got all our information up there different classes that we run as well as our trip options um on top of that um on Instagram you can get a hold of me on there it would be Flyer on the mountain f L I E R O N T H E M O U N T A I N.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

And uh and Livingston Trout Guides um has an Instagram as well you can find me on there.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Okay. We'll link to those things in the show notes.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Anything you're excited about coming up in your personal life or your fishing life or anything you want to share or you're fired up or just getting back out there and catching getting into the going down to the bighorn going down to the bighorn here in a few days to meet up with uh one of my favorite guys that I get to take fishing from time to time uh Andy McCain he's a he's a real good one he comes out with his his wife Lucy um I really enjoy hanging out with them he's actually John McCain's son so uh they're they're they're really great people yeah really great people that's cool man that is exciting that's cool looking forward to it I haven't had them down on the bighorn yet so they've they've yet generally come up to uh Livingston in the summer take them on the Yellowstone look for big browns but um I have a feeling they're gonna love the bighorn Flat River lights out right now.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

I like the bighorn last question new last question you ready? Yes sir okay you're the first to get this new last question so we'll see how it goes. Okay let's fast forward to the end of your fly fishing days okay you're an old man and you you can't make it out on the river anymore. Maybe you can you know get out to a lake or something but you're not going in a drift boat down the Yellowstone River anymore. So wherever that wherever that puts you in your mind imagination like you're at that stage in your life where you no longer can go fly fishing for whatever reason. What's something that you want to pass along to your the younger generation or maybe your grandkids or somebody who's getting into fly fishing what's something that you would you know the last thing that you would want them to know about fly fishing and w what they should approach it with I'd probably let them know you know how great of a sport it is beyond the sport if that makes sense you know um I think this sport does a lot for people without them even knowing I you know I dare to say fly fishing saves lives.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Um it's it's it's something that uh has done a lot for me and I've seen do a lot for a lot of other people so um more than anything I would just teach want to teach the benefits of that of you know just uh what you can get out of it for life. It's it's you could spend all day getting hung up on the fact that you didn't catch a fish you know when you get home you spend the whole next day worried about it but at the end of the day you still got something out of it if you can kind of get past that and and recognize you had some time to yourself and and you were focused and and you know you know kind of clearing your mind a little bit um it's a beautiful thing. I don't I don't know where I'd be without it good answer.

SPEAKER_02 43:10

Good answer Alex I appreciate you taking the time be on the show. I thank you for all the answers you gave today lots of awesome information good stories a few good laughs and I'm I'm excited I'm I'm happy for you that you're in this new stage with um Livingston Trout guides and you you got your outfitter and your move like it just sounds like an exciting time for you and I'm excited fun maintaining our friendship and like talking throughout the years and uh I wish you well and I'll definitely be out there to fish with you. So thanks a lot. Thanks for being on the show. All right thank you Jason thanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories and artwork check out my blog and online gallery at WadeOutthere.com If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey please subscribe and share. Until next time Wade Out There we go