WOT 236: Frank Landis - Part 2. Night Tactics and Techniques in Pennsylvania’a Trout Streams

In this episode we WadeOutThere for part two of our conversation with Frank Landis, from Carlisle, Pennsylvania.  Frank grew up fishing with his father, and used fly fishing when he thought it was the best tactic to catch fish.  By college he had completely crossed over and was fly fishing every chance he got.

Frank is a middle school teacher and became a part time fly fishing guide at his local fly shop after working on the floor for several years.  

In Part 2 of our discussion, Frank discusses the night tactics and techniques he employs in Pennsylvania’s trout water.

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TCO Fly Fishing.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

In this episode, we wait out there for part two of our conversation with Frank Landis from Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Frank grew up fishing with his father and used fly fishing when he thought it was the best tactic to catch fish. By college, he had completely crossed over and was fly fishing every chance he got. Frank is a middle school teacher and became a part-time fly fishing guide at his local fly shop after working on the floor for several years. In part two of our discussion, Frank shares the night tactics and techniques he employs in Pennsylvania's trout water. At Wade Out There, we believe fly fishing is special, but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to wait out there. Alright, let's talk some night fishing then. I want to start with uh why is it important for you to bring awareness around that, or why do you think that that's something that you really want to communicate to people? You know, you could talk about anything on the podcast today, but nightfly fishing is something that you you know that you're excited about. Why why is that?

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Yeah, it's it's definitely something I've just fallen in love with uh the last handful of years. Um and it's part of it is like the uh the fact that I'll bring up a book, and I I'm sure uh you might have had other guests mention this, but Jim Bashline's book is called uh uh Night Fishing for Trout the Final Frontier. And I do believe that it is like the kind of the final frontier of the trout game, right? Um there's so much written about everything else from you know nymphing dry fly streamers, this technique here, nymphing, whatever. There's there's just like there's almost so there's more information, information than you could ever consume if you if you're really into it. But uh Google night fishing articles and see what you find. Uh try and find a book about night fishing and see what you find. There's some. There's some things out there written, and there's some people out there that do it, but uh it's a small percentage. And so um it kind of feels like you know, you talk about the I talked about earlier the sense of adventure when you're when you go drive into a new place that's like vast and you know different from what you're used to. Um it's kind of an adventure for me here at home. It completely transforms what I'm doing. I think there's an allure to the guy that fishes a ton uh during the day. And I don't want to say it's jaded. I'm not jaded to the daytime fishing whatsoever. Um, but like you know, you do something a lot, and it's just one way to mix it up, and it's one way to do something uh right in your backyard that's just different than what you did yesterday without going anywhere new. It's completely changing the landscape because all the rules change, the the gear changes, the flies change, the exact same rod and reel setup that I'm gonna take on the exact same water, you know, fishing the morning, you know, terrestrial bite in July or June or something like that is completely different to what I'm gonna do at midnight on that exact same piece of water the exact same time of year. So it's just good, it's just uh a completely different, a completely new, it's very fresh. Um then also the the darkness component of it, the fact that you can't see, that's part of the inhibiting factor on why knowledge isn't built up on it quicker is because a lot of it is guesswork and it just takes if it takes if it takes you a year to figure out something during the day, you know, multiply that by whatever factor at night because it's not gonna come as fast at night. So yeah, it's just kind of that unknown, kind of the the newness, the freshness of it, the uh ability to make something really different. And then like, you know, obviously the big fish factor is something that uh is well known with the night game. It's um definitely if you if you underplay the big fish card at night, I think you're being disingenuous. Night fishing and big fish go hand in hand, but uh a lot of it is like all those other things along with the you know, along with that chase of the big guy.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

So okay. Well, we'll talk a little bit more about the tactics in a minute with the gear and the flies that you mentioned. How does night fishing or how has night fishing improved your day fishing?

SPEAKER_02 4:22

No, that's a good question. Um I think uh it helps you it reminds you to not uh not make assumptions, right? Um because I've seen, you know, in the night game, I've seen people do things that are kind of random and that have worked that I would have never done myself. And I think uh you could take that same concept and apply it to the day because the fish are feeding opportunistically um in day or night, and yeah, they might the behavior might change because of the light conditions, but um, you know, not making assumptions, you know, not being afraid to try something a little off the wall. And when I talk to other guys that nightfish a lot, I think they are more willing to try things that are, like I said, a little bit more random, a little bit more unconventional, because they are trying to solve problems that don't have like well-known answers. And I think I can I've I've kind of applied that to my daytime fishing in like terms of pushing, pushing what I'm willing to try in a situation to get that one fish to eat. Uh, because I've seen it at night where it's like, man, I was not expecting that to work. It worked. Let's take a little bit of that and rub it off in the daytime.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

So what are some obvious lessons learned that hit you right out the bat when you started night fly fishing? Something that was like, yep, okay, that that people need to expect that maybe they if you mentioned it now, it could give them a little bit of a head start and just kind of, hey, make sure you expect this because this is like this was an obvious lesson learned, maybe a couple of them.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

Just like from the from the fishing perspective, um, and being effective at night, you mean? Like the the or being.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

The first time you go out on the water at night, there's gonna be like logistical and tactical kind of just like things that you're like, oh yeah, I should have thought about that. Like, yeah, I need a headlamp. That was dumb. I forgot. Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Bring uh bring the headlamp, make sure it has a red setting on it, um, so that you don't burn your night vision when you're doing things. Um, don't shine the light on the water that you intend to fish. Uh, you know, if you you know, from what we found, uh blasting the water with a bright white light is gonna spook fish um more often than not. I've seen exceptions and I've heard plenty of stories from around the country. Like there is a famous Colorado terrible tailwater that has like tons of my C's shrimp. And I know of a guy that used to be a PA guy, moved out there. He was telling me how they they literally fish at night under a spotlight to Browns and nymph them with my C's shrimp under the spotlight, and they catch like stupid numbers of fish. That isn't the exception, that's not the rule, and I would just avoid the light at all costs. So don't shine your light on the water that you expect to fish. That's gonna that's gonna put a fish down. Uh fish water that you know and you've been to before, showing up to a new river and fishing at night. I've done this. Um wouldn't suggest it.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

What was the result of that? Just lots of falling into holes and yeah, it depends on the river, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:12

So, I mean, some rivers are kind of predictable. Like if you fish this section of the river, maybe you go a little further downstream. And um, I've definitely dabbled in hitting spots at night having never been there. And I've had surprising success doing it, but it's because I I was already kind of I already kind of had some techniques and some like big picture concepts of what I want to do at night ironed out. But for the first time you night fish, you're gonna want to go to water that you're familiar with, that you've waited before. You need to be able to picture what the bank is. So, like if you know there's an overhanging tree or a boulder or a log in the way or a stick sticking out where you could snag. Those are things that should be in your memory bank uh when you when you first go out there and try and get after it. And then also, I would maybe target the slower water that that water that we talked about earlier that's hard to nymph fish because you can't get too close to fish. Maybe some of that water is where I'd start night fishing. I wouldn't night fish the faster riffles moving water. Um, I'd fish the stuff that's kind of trickier to nymph and that you might not want to nymph fish because you can't get so close to it. Those spots tend to be pretty productive at night and they're simple to fish at night.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

So anything else obvious lessons learned? You gave us a lot of them, so if there's not, that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

But yeah, I mean obviously you have to you have to be a little bit more your casting and your s and your skills have to be a little bit more intuitive. You know, if you can't make a cast with your eyes closed and not have a you know do something unexpected, then you're probably not ready to night fish. Um even something as simple as just like uh you know, anticipate when you mend, like being able to visualize what that's doing to your presentation and your fly, that's a helpful thing. Um because you can't see it, you know. So just having those skills, like you don't I actually don't think you have to be a really, really great angler to nightfish. It definitely more experienced guys are drawn to it because of because it you know you're you're in the dark, you're doing something basically blindfolded, so there's that challenge to it. Um and it's also super different. So guys who have fished a lot do it, but I'm actually in the camp that like the actual presentations you do at night, if you can make that 40 foot cast and that's kind of easy for you, and you you pick your spots wisely. I think uh plenty of the intermediates, uh uh you know, early intermediate guys who are trying to break out of that beginner stage, I think those guys have some night fishing opportunities that I think are probably underappreciated, actually.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

So yeah. I have limited night fly fishing experience. Most of my night fly fishing experience has been accidental, where I'm day fly fishing and now it has become night.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Yeah, that's how I start that's how it started for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

And it's like I'm not done fishing, I'm still catching fish. Like, I'm out here, we're doing this, I guess. Because the fish have decided that this is still gonna be exciting for me. So um my experience has been one of the more challenging things is the hook setting, uh hook setting and um just knowing that I have a hit, uh hook setting, and fighting the fish, like that whole kind of process. Fighting the fish, probably not as hard, like you know, it just depends on my rig, if I have enough tippet on for what I'm doing, kind of thing. But um definitely that part of it seems to be that was challenging for me. Do you have any tips for that?

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Yeah, so from the hook setting side of night fishing, um so I guess I'll start it off. If you're night fishing and your presentations involve some sort of downstream swing, which I think is the place that you should start, uh where you have some just like swinging soft tackles or just like swinging for salmon and seal head, you're letting the current kind of swing your fly across the current from a casting in a downstream angle or across letting it take your uh fly down. If you're presenting at that angle, you have tension already, right? And so you don't need to do too much with the hook set when you have tension. Uh we're fishing big, at least I am. Um I'm fishing for predatory fish that are willing to eat a mouse or a streamer or something large. And when fish, I I kind of think that when fish are going after those food forms, if they get poked for like a half a second, that's not so alarming to them, right? Crayfish has claws, a mouse has teeth, baby bird that falls in has a beak, uh, a sunfish has a spine on its back. There's things that can poke a fish in the mouth that they actually do eat in real life, right? So um, when they get poked by your hook, they they hang on to it and they continue to swim. Versus when they go to eat your blueing to olive that's a size 20 and they feel a hook, they're like, that raises like alarm. Like they've never eaten something that small that pokes them. So they're like, I'm getting out of here, I'm spitting this out, I'm freaking out. But at night, when they're eating a mouse or they're eating a crayfish or they're eating something big, um, I don't think that they're so quick to drop. So they're gonna grab and turn and swim away. The the biggest mistake, and if I guide somebody at night, which I did have done a little bit, started doing that a little bit last year, um, the biggest mistake that people make is they hear the sound of a tick, especially on a surface eat. They hear that sound and they they set the hook and they do way too much. The best thing you can do if you already have tension is nothing. You know, and if the fish is pulling a little bit, you should wait to feel something before you react. Easier said than done for a guy who's been nymphing in dry fly fishing to not react because it completely breaks every bone, every bone's every muscle memory that you have in your body. It completely breaks the you know what you've been training yourself to do for years. So the fish eats and you feel it, if it's pulling a little bit, you can pull a little bit. If it's pulling really hard, you can probably pull really hard because it's probably hooked. But uh doing too much is a big mistake because probably what you're gonna do is change the trajectory and change the angle of your um, you know, however you had it before, whatever your swing was, and that might not be what hooks the fish, it might just rip it right out of its mouth, right? So letting that fish take its time, swim away with your fly, sometimes you'll feel these little taps, and it'll just feel like tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, almost like your fly is like tapping the bottom. Like when you if you imagine like if you're attacked by a nymphing and dragged your fly across some light gravel that wasn't getting snagged, you feel those taps, right? Um or the feeling of a small fish, like tapping your streamer, maybe might be another uh you know, analogy. But when you feel that little tap, if you just kind of let it go and just pull a little bit, sometimes that little tap feeling can turn into an impressive fish. And it might surprise you uh what those takes feel like because sometimes they're not as explosive and they're not as crazy as like people would have you think that uh are focused on like the mousing, you know, high intensity explosive eats, you know, sounds like a toilet flushed in the middle of the river. It's not always like that, especially if you're fishing subsurface. So uh there's lots of little things that that can get you know kind of kind of get lost if you're if you if you overdo the the hook set. So I'd say less is more with that.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Less is more. I like that. How does illumination change the style or technique that you're gonna bring to the water?

SPEAKER_02 16:21

You mean like from moonlight or or something?

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Stars, moon, cloud cover, things like that. Because fishing streamer or swinging, that I to me that makes the the most sense on the easiest way to kind of maybe not the easiest way, I don't know if that's right, but um it's you don't have to see as much, I guess, to do that, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:42

No, I mean bank on not being able to see and bank on even if there is some other light, you're not gonna see too much. I mean, there's glow on the dark fly lines and some glow tabs you could put on your mouse or whatever, but um just bank on not being able to see no matter how much light there is. Um but the effect of the the moon and light on your fishing, I think is can't be understated. I mean, I think that's the number one condition that I look for when fishing is like what is the moon doing? Um, the the one condition that I kind of try to avoid at all costs is like a direct full moon hitting the water. Um, just like brown trout don't like a sunny day uh as much as a cloudy day. At night, I think it's the same thing holds true. They want to see a darker condition and they are they're more easygoing and happy when the moon's not blasting them in the face. So avoiding the brightest, avoiding the brightest situations, like some moonlight isn't enough to deter me from fishing. You can always find shadows, you can always position yourself accordingly, you can look at the moonrise time and kind of beat it out or come out after it sets or something. There's always ways to work around it, but um, if you know it's gonna be a full moon and the moon's gonna be high in the sky all night, there's no clouds, I'd avoid that.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

So Okay, so that makes sense. That makes sense to me. What do you say to someone who what do you say to someone that you overhear who says, Oh, the fishing's bad today because it was a full moon last night and they're just all full because they've been eating all night long? Because I've heard that before. And in my brain, I'm like, well, it kind of makes sense, you know. Maybe like but what's the what's the why does that not uh why does that not make sense?

SPEAKER_02 18:17

I could think of a couple reasons, but I'm interested in your It doesn't make sense to me because when I go out and night fish and there's a full moon, and I what I'll one of the things that I do to gain information, especially when the fishing's slow, is I'll take a super high-powered handheld flashlight that's basically a uh basically it's a low-powered spot. Some of these lights they have now are pretty impressive, like 2,000 lumens, and I blast the water, right? There are so many nights that on a full moon, the places that you would expect to see a fish out and feeding, like the good kind of night water, the places that like a fish would like kind of be capitalizing on the nighttime conditions, they're not there. They're often not there, they're just nowhere to be found. They're in the they're in the lies that you wouldn't expect them to be feeding heavy. I guess it doesn't mean they're not eating nymphs and things that they would normally eat. And that's not something that I do at night very much. I don't nymph fish at night, so I can't speak to like the effectiveness of like traditional nymphing tactics at night uh on a full moon. But um, I think they're just not as going as crazy. Um, I think that logic is it's probably just an excuse. But the moon might have an effect on uh the moon might have an effect on um fish behavior just from like um I I've seen it where like as soon as the moon comes up or down over the tree line, I've seen the because I pay attention to it more at night than the day. I've seen fishing turn on enough with that. And is there something to it? Maybe something that we don't understand. But I think from the from the night fishing perspective.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Wait, can you say that again? That last part where it switches on and off? Like because sometimes the moon will affect like you know, fishing.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Yeah. Like I don't know. Like I've seen the moon like drop below the tree line, even not even a full moon, like a a half moon drop below, kind of go below the horizon. And after that the fishing turns on, and I've always chalked it up to like just being a lower light condition, right? Like I think I I don't look at it as like that there's any woo-woo with the moon. I mean, maybe there is some other reasons, and I know some guys kind of really believe in these moon cycles and how it affects the fishing, both on saltwater side of things and freshwater. Um, it's something that I've really tried to track or keep in mind, but from the night fishing perspective, to me, it's all about the light because I've seen situations where the moon is out, but it's behind something, maybe clouds come through, and when it goes behind the thing, the fit you that's like your window to maybe catch something. And I've seen that happen. So to me, it's like, okay, did some like other condition change? Not really, it's just less light. And so I think it's just like the same as clouds coming in front of the sun and the fishing picking up during the day. I think the same thing happens at night. And that's that's my rationale. There could totally be more to it that is just less understood that, but I don't I don't I don't read into it.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Well, what makes sense to me is you know, fish, trout, you know, they want uh they need oxygenated water, they need a food source, and they want protection, right? Um maybe there's some other stuff they want, but those are things they want. And if you're at night, like the less light there is, the more to me that translates to protection. That seems like it's harder for predators to eat them when there's less light than more light. I don't I mean That's my rationale.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

I totally agree with you. Like it's the same reason that some off-colored water might be a good thing, the same reason that fish are underneath of a bridge, it's the same reason that uh, you know, the brown trout fishing picks up on a cloudy day. Um it's harder to see them. I I totally agree that that's I think that's the right way to uh to assess that circumstance.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

But my opinion is based on just like postulating. Yours is more like the well, this is what I see.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

So I think it's valid. I mean the the thought process is sound, so all right.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

That makes me feel good. Let's talk let's tell a story. Yeah. Tell me tell me about a nightfish experience or a fish that you caught, maybe one that got away, that uh sticks it with you, whether because it was a big fish or you really learned something uh that you took forward from that experience.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Yeah. Um probably the most I learned from a fish, fortunately, was the one that I didn't end up landing this year. Um I did end up landing it, so I'd you know I've had plenty get away, but I learned something from this one. So perfect. Um I was dealing one of the conditions that um I don't like to see, and I we've we've debated why this is, but anytime there's a fog on the surface of the water that that's like a tight, like at night, it happens a lot where as soon as the sun goes down, temperatures change. Sometimes there's like a film of fog stuck on the surface. I've never done well when that fog, that there's a thick layer of fog and it's touching the water. Uh when there's some fog, just like in the in the air, kind of like a rainy day fog, that's not what I'm talking about. It's like a temperature change-related fog where it's like stuck to the water. It just seems to be a bad circumstance. And so I was like fishing one of my one of my favorite big fish spots locally, and uh hitting it after, you know, right when the sun goes down, um, walking down there, hitting it for an hour or two. And what was happening, I think, and this is my my theory here, um, it was and I was having no success in a place that I typically do well. And I was getting this fog every night, and it would happen within 30 minutes of the sun going down. So I was getting frustrated with the fog, you know, coming in. And with my opinion, that was a condition that I thought was maybe messing things up because I wasn't catching the fish that I would normally catch. So I thought about it and I thought, what could I do to avoid that fog? Well, let's wait for a weekend and let's let those temperatures stabilize and rather than hitting it right when the sun goes down, let's do, let's wake up, let's set the alarm for 3 a.m., get to the water at four when it's still dark out. And maybe the the the nighttime temps have settled down and that the uh the uh the difference between the air and water temps won't create such a nasty fog. And I went out and I caught a uh, you know, within it was funny, within like five or ten minutes of fishing, I stuck like a twenty three and it was one of my you know top two fish of the year. And uh it was like, wow, like going to the other end of the night was such a payoff there. Had I just gone after, you know, the the evening shift, the 10 p.m. shift, probably would have failed because I had failed every other day that week. But switching it up and going more on the morning side, it's still dark out, and so you're still night fishing. And if anything, those fish have had more time to kind of settle into their night behavior. And, you know, I would say the thing I learned is don't neglect the hours before the sun come up. It's that's also night, you know. A lot of people, because of our sleep pattern, we're more likely just to like stay up late and then get home at 1 a.m. and crash and wake up for work the next day. But if you can, you know, get up early and and do it on the other end of the night. So that was uh five to one fish that taught me something from the night fishing side of things.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

So and now that you got the little one, you got all kinds of practice at all hours of the night of being awake and right, right. You're ready to go all anytime. Uh depends on how far that river is, I guess, if you could sneak away. Let's talk about some of the things you mentioned before. A little more in the weeds on the uh techniques and things. You you know, you said everything changes at night, the gear, the flies. You didn't say this, but I'm saying that. Like I would imagine the water that you're fishing and how you're targeting gear, flies first, and then kind of the water type, and we'll flow that into how we're presenting to that different water type. And if you want to for this conversation, you know, we can just stick with that kind of streamer fishing that it sounds like you're doing more of that.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Yeah, I I definitely uh I do fish the topwater stuff, but uh the last couple years I've tried to hone in the subsurface, you know, night fishing because that's a total that's a whole other side of the night fishing game than a lot of people neglect.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

You're talking about you you have tried the dry fly fishing at night?

SPEAKER_02 26:07

No, I mean like why I say topwater at night, I typically mean like a mouse or a frog. Yeah, something that pushes awake on the surface, and something that floats atop the surface. Um that's like a that's when a lot of guys don't say night. I say night fishing. A lot of guys say mousing because they that's all that they do is put a mouse on. And it's like a one dim- to me, that's a one-dimensional way to night fish. Certainly fun and exciting, and it's a cool idea. It sounds pretty neat. A fishing like a mouse, like a trotting in a mammal is cool, but I definitely have ramped into the uh It is cool, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

There's no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

And when it when it works, it's great. But uh, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of fish that I don't think I would have caught if I was married to the the surface stuff. So I definitely do both. Yeah, it's I I I do what I think will be effective, but um but the gear doesn't change too much whether I go surface or subsurface. So let's start with that. Um for a rod, I like a nine foot six weight. Uh, you know, stiffer, you know, kind of like a I don't know, I don't know your way, guys won't um maybe think of it like this, but our our way, like a light, a light duty bass rod is a nice night fishing rod. So like whatever you would do, your summertime top water type bass rods work well for the night game because you're casting similar flies. Um, guys go all the way down to a nine foot five weight. Um, I like the six weight just gives you a little bit more to cast the bigger flies.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Um there if you're fishing the really big flies and you're or you're fishing out of a boat, you could totally warrant going seven and eight weights. But for what I like to do um in my style, I think the six weight kind of strikes the nicest balance, uh, the distances I cast, the flies I fish. Work the six weight, and I go with the uh S Scientific Anglers mix the infinity taper in a glow line, so it's the glow in the dark. You can charge up the first, I think, ten feet of it or so with the flashlight. So if you hit it with a bright flashlight and just kind of slowly kind of pull the line through your hand while you're cupping it and have the light in your hand, um it'll glow for you know maybe 15 to 30 minutes, depending on how much you charge it up.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Sorry, did you say that's your fly line or your fly leader?

SPEAKER_02 28:07

My fly line, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Okay. So a scientific angular glowing fly line.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Yep, the infinity taper, they make it in a glow. So that infinity is probably one of their most popular lines for fast action rods in general. It's the exact same line. Nothing is different about it other than they put the glow in the dark stuff into the coating.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

So is it floating line?

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Yep, floating line, yep.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Same as the same if you buy an SA Infinity for your regular trout outfit, is that it's the exact same thing, except this one is white, and when you hit it with the flashlight, it glows.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

So Okay, all right, okay. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

So then I from the fly line, I'm going to a pretty short aggressive leader. If you want to buy a leader from a fly shop that will work well, would be like a Rio Big Nasty, which is like a six-foot leader designed to turn over a big bushy fly, which is what we're using is big old flies. Um, I put on like a little micro swivel at the end um to prevent some twist. Some of the flies you're fishing might cause some line twist, and then uh so that's just a a means to to avoid some of that. And then uh a short piece of tippet in the neighborhood of 12 to 16 pounds. Uh so going really, really heavy because going light does you no good at night. There's there's no advantage. The fish are not tippet shy, and the presentations are all with tension anyway. You don't need to get a dead drift or anything like that. So uh there's no advantage to going very light with your tippets. Uh maybe to get some depth, and might I might veer to the 12 pound just because I you might cut through the water a little bit better if I want to get down, but even fishing subsurface, when I say subsurface, a lot of my subsurface fishing is within a foot. So like you don't have to really get down too fast most of the time to effectively get those fish. So that the sink rate isn't normally a factor, it is in extreme situations, maybe, but not normally a factor. So you can go you can go right up to 16 pounds and um I don't like to go too much heavier than that because if you let's say you do snag on the other side of the river, let's say you cannot weigh it across. Uh, I like to be able to break that off uh within reason and not have like some giant size two flying back in my face uh because it ripped out of the trees. So to me, I think 16 pound is a you're never gonna break a trout off on it, at least if the caliber trout we have in my neck of the woods. You know, you can catch a two-foot trout on 16 pound just fine. Not that there's many of them around, but that's what you're going, that's what you're hoping for. So you you'll handle that just fine.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Be ready for it.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Be ready for them with that. And then on the other hand, like, yeah, you could use 30 pound and it wouldn't affect your fishing, but like snag down a tree and try and break it off. It won't be a it won't be a very easy thing to do. It's kind of uh and plus 30 pounds, like pretty getting pretty close to your fly line core. So when you need to break things off, you uh gotta be careful with the really, really, really heavy stuff. So I keep it test to 16 because I think it's uh strong enough to handle any fish I'm gonna encounter, but then light enough that like if I need to break it, it's totally breakable.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

So okay, okay. Sounds good. What about uh flies?

SPEAKER_02 31:13

Yeah, so kind of you can kind of break them down into surface and subsurface, um or and also there's some flies that kind of blur the line between surface and subsurface. They might ride in the film, but part of them hangs down, so that's a pretty common night pattern. But um you know, just a couple that I like to use. Um you got your mouse patterns, which are like your foam or hair style mouse, might have a single hook, it might have a little stinger behind it. A mouse pattern that is like popular out here would be like a master splinter. It's just foam and some rabbit hair. And uh just developed up on the Delaware River, I believe, if I'm not mistaken. And just basically it's a foam thing that pushes awake and you know, pretty effective. You have like your spun deer hair, um, like the Moorish mouse kind of style fly is another pretty popular one. And they that would fish very similar to a master splinter and in like what it does on the water. Um, but really anything with foam, anything that floats that's kind of that size and shape, I think all give very similar results.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

So is there a mouse fly that's easier to tie if people really like to tie their own flies and they're like, Yeah, master a master splinter is about as easy as it gets.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Okay. Uh you just you know tie in a tail, which is just a stripped-off piece of the rabbit strip, um, cut in a you know foam at the right angle and tie that down, uh, wrap the uh rabbit fur around the hook and then uh fold the foam over, tie it down, reinforce with some super glue if you so desire, and that's pretty much it. The kind of resembles a resembles a gurglar up in the front, and so it's a folded over foam, kind of gives that look.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Um any ears? You put ears on these guys?

SPEAKER_02 32:49

No, no. I I don't I don't no and honestly, like I don't think that matters at all. Just okay. It might be good for selling flies in the fly shop, like it might catch our attention. But it's cool. Like, honestly, like I've I you know my style of fly tying is like so much the fishing side that I don't worry about anything like that, but like there's some honor and there's some integrity in like keeping your fly realistic looking. So like if you uh if you're tying a mouse and you want to put a little uh you know, a couple whiskers on there, so be it. I mean, that's there's nothing wrong with that. I just don't think the fish are gonna notice or care. Um, nor do I think that they eat a mouse for a mouse half the time, anyway. Like uh like they eat these mouse patterns and we present them on a somewhat regular basis. I can't imagine that mice are constantly swimming across the surface. It can't be that common of a thing. So they're eating it for different things. They might think it's a mouse, they might think it's a frog, they might think uh some baby bird fell on the water, whatever it is that they think it is that could push awake. Uh it's food. It's food, it's just a thing. So it's a creature, it's a you know, it is what it is. So I wouldn't overthink those details. I think I don't find it.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

I'm alive and it's smaller than me.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Yeah, exactly. That's all that you're totally right. Yeah, especially on these big trout. I mean, yeah, they have small brains, but they uh they're just opportunistic. They're just gonna eat whatever they uh you know think they can eat. So and doing it safely. That's what they do.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Okay, let's broaden our category outside of mice then. Now, what else are you thinking?

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Yeah, so like uh I like unweighted streamers. Uh that's kind of like my favorite way to night fish. Um, requires you to fish by feel a little bit more because you don't hear the strike. Um, but you will feel them when they hit it. So it's you know, if you present it the right way, you'll feel them. Um so you don't have that explosion. But uh fishing an unweighted streamer, something that's gonna fish uh, like I said, within a foot of the surface. Sometimes getting them deeper than that has worked for me, but it's more like in an extreme circumstance. Um I have a pattern that I came up with. Um I actually kind of was inspired by one of your guests, Bill Ferguson, who you had on quite a long time ago. He's another PA night fishing guy. Um and I have fished together a handful of times, and he guides for us now. Um, and we've we always share patterns back and forth. And I was fishing with him and Sam one day, and he handed me a fly that was like a kind of like a bait fish articulated. Um, and I kind of stole the platform there. It was um a front hook was like a regular size two or something, then a shank in the middle, and then like a trailing little like shorter shank hook. And that shorter shank hook uh on the back mixed with the shank was a I like that kind of that platform to tie off of. So his was a little bit more, like you said, intricate with what he the materials he chose. I knew that I would never tie that many steps into it, and mine would be simpler. So I kind of used the platform though because I liked the hook shank platform that he had. Thought it moved well, thought it made sense um from night fishing. And so I took that, subbed out some materials, put my little spin on it, and I call it the cat. And it uh it fishes pretty well, has a deer hair, a spun deer hair head, um, kind of shaped up, like a kind of a wedge head, not as wedgy as like um a D, but uh maybe a little more rounded, maybe a little bit more to step towards a muddler minnow style shape. Uh just some marabou behind that. Um, and then the shank just has a little bit of chocolate, skame changer chenille trimmed flat. The back hook has a little bit of that same chenille trimmed flat, and then a little bit uh just a small piece of uh like a rooster saddle off the back to make it kick a little bit, and that's it. So it's uh a couple steps to tie it. It's not an easy pattern to get totally right because it's articulated and there's steps to it, and there's spun deer hair, but like the material list is simple. Um, you know, not not a beginner fly pattern, but I think an intermediate tie or someone who can spin deer hair can to can tie can tie that. So I don't have it posted anywhere. That's something that I'll probably work on this year.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

So I was gonna say, what's the name of this fly? Where can we see this?

SPEAKER_02 36:41

Yeah, it's called I call it the cat because uh the cat, you said that the cat because it's a play on words, I think it's because it's better than a mouse, right? Night fishing is now a cat and mouse game for me. The pawns are endless with the cat and mouse thing. So no, I called it the cat just because yeah, I don't know. I'm not good at thinking of fly names and it's whatever stuck with me and my friends. So um that's what that's what I call it. Um, but uh it's just like it's just a little, you know, it's not too terribly big, has you know three uh two articulations on it, a shank and a back hook, and it yeah, yeah, it wiggles, it pushes some water, has a nice profile. Um, I think they take it for a bait fish, I think they take it for a crayfish. If you swing it real fast off the way you cast it, it can push a wake on the surface if you uh don't let it sink. So it's a universal pattern. It can kind of be used, you know, a couple different ways and a couple different techniques effectively. And um, you know, I think it fishes in the faster moving water. And when I say faster, I mean a little bit more fast than like the mousey kind of flow top water flies do. So I like it in the uh like it in more different water types.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

So Okay. I remember Bill. That was a long time ago.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

That was like one of that was earlier, that was back uh back a while ago.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

He's a teacher too, isn't he? Yeah, he's retired. He's retired. Yeah, he's a retired teacher.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

He can he can get out a lot more than I do because of that.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

And I think we talked about night fishing too. I think that that was one of the things we talked about.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

If you had Bill on, I'm sure you did. So that's a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Yeah, I do remember him being retired uh or retired. I think he was just retiring, maybe, or had just retired or uh something, but yeah, you talked about night fishing. Uh one of the things he liked about it, I think, was that you can still fulfill all your responsibilities during the day. And then it's just on it's just on you. Like no, you know, everyone's asleep, there's nothing going on, but I can sneak out for there's there's no reason why I can't go other than I will be tired tomorrow. That's so true.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, you you sacrifice on the back end, but that's there's nothing stopping you. There's not like there's a dinner party you have to go to at 2 a.m.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

Right. You will be there for the soccer game, you will be there for breakfast and dinner, you will be there to pick up your kid from soccer practice. Yep. Yeah, there's none of that.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

Yep, yep, yep. So there's nothing.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

We'll link to that in the show notes too for people if want to listen to Bill talk about night fly fishing. Yeah, listen to that.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

And then also you had you had Sam Gauld on, who I think I I listened to that one uh when that one came out. I know he talked about night fishing on on hit on his interview with you, and you know, he's a guy who's been one of my mentors in the night game, and so I'll definitely shout him out and learn so much from Sam. He's one of my good buddies. You know, we both guide for the same entity with TCO and relentless fly fishing. So um, so uh we're we're great buddies and we nightfish together quite a bit. He lives a little he lives about two hours from me, so we're not like getting out there every night, but you know, when I guide neck at his neck of the woods, I stay at his house. And you know, Bill and Sam are two guys that you've had on that spent a lot of time with that on the night, the night end of things, whether fishing or conversations or sending pictures of flies back and forth. So those are two great guys to go back and listen to on the uh topic that you had on. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

All right. So if if people can't find that fly that you're that you're describing, is there something that they can go to? So if they they don't want to fish a mouse, they don't really have your fly, or you know, that's your kind of personal. Is there another fly besides a mouse that you would recommend that picked up?

SPEAKER_02 40:01

The only downside to like the shop tight flies that you're gonna find is like finding one that's unweighted. A lot of like so the dungeons gonna have like the lead dumbbell eyes, which that will totally work at night. It will just sink a little faster, which doesn't hurt you always, but in the skinniest water, you'll snag up a little bit more, which is just a little bit more annoying, but that will certainly work as a replacement. Um if you are swinging it and you're not just just don't let it sink too fast and you'll be fine. So like a black dungeon would be a great, a great alternative. And any any of the deer hair, like the spun deer hair, head flies, um.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Because they float. And you're you're looking for something with buoyancy.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

Yeah, I want it to be not necessarily floating, but close to the surface. And yeah, I don't want it to plummet to the bottom. So like your jig streamers, your like uh cone head, tungsten head style streamers. Yeah, I mean it has its place at night to get down deep, but uh not normally. It's normally uh you want to be close to that surface so that it's silhouettes against the sky and they can see it. You figure at night the visual is harder for the fish. So I think something above them is easier for them to detect. Uh silhouettes a little bit better. So at least that's the that's my theory there on why uh eat that higher up stuff.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

All right. Well, let's wrap it up a little bit with the water that you're fishing, the water type, reading reading water, or if you're even reading water, or how you're fishing to the water and targeting the fish, like presentation and water type.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

Yeah, simplest thing for water type is like fish the stuff that's maybe slower than what you prefer during the day. Um so like slow it down a notch, fish that slower water. Um, I think that gives the fish more time to see your fly at night and react to it. So I think that ups your chances there. Uh the presentations are easier, uh, things are playing out slower. So all those things when you add the challenges of fishing in the pitch black where you know nothing is normal and nothing is as you think it is, you know, having more that's predictable is helpful. And I also think that fish move into those water types at night because you know they they don't have the concealment there, but it's nice, so they they'll they'll they'll utilize it. Um another good place to think about at night are like the take your best year A spot during the day, like a nice deep run next to the log, and it's like you everyone looks at that and everyone knows there's a fish there. Whatever little shallow, skinny side pockets and little side channels near that stuff within like a stone's throw of that is good stuff to target at night, even if it's a small little area, because that's where they will go to that's where a big fish will go to kind of feed more out in the open and take advantage of that cover of darkness, and it's not so structure-oriented anymore. It's now, you know, food availability oriented and it feels safe out there. So hitting those skinny spots near the hay water during the day is is good. So having a knowledge of the river you're fishing from the daytime, knowing it already and heading back to it at night is key to find those kind of spots. You're not going to find that line.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Yeah, so it sounds like you're talking about these kind of streamer fishing targets that you would look for during the day around structure, deep water kind of pools and you know, back eddies around logs and stone and rocks and stuff. Looking for that, but then fishing off of that into more shallow water.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

Yeah, this like the even some like you might never fish those spots during the day, but it's probably worth probably worth running your flight through at night.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Are you moving a lot? I mean, are you like covering a lot of ground? I mean, I know you've got to go slower, right? But I mean, like for me, I'm just here I am. This is kind of the part of the river that is that is easily traversed. It's kind of what I know. That also now lends it to so like I I'm kind of this is where I'm at, you know. So if uh how do I cover water, or what do you think about when you're doing that?

SPEAKER_02 43:46

So I cover much less uh quantity of water at night than daytime fishing. So um like uh I won't I would not be afraid if I know a spot is good and productive to fish it back and forth three times at night um over and over and over, like repeat over the same water, make multiple passes over the exact same spot um because the fish aren't put down the same way they are in the day. So you have more chances at them at night, and um, I don't think it matters that you fished it already. In the day, I wouldn't have as much confidence at night. I would, and then from there, so it's harder to navigate in general at night. It's harder to cover water, it's harder to wait. Um, so everything about it just lends itself to you covering less water. So uh definitely a fraction of the I might go miles in the day, I might cover a couple hundred yards at night, um, fishing it slow, giving your giving your fish a chance to see and react to your fly. Um, just because like with nymphing, you know, if you make like six great drifts through an awesome run, like, or you streamer fishing during the day, you put a nice presentation in front of the log, they don't eat it, man, they're probably not going to. At night, I don't think that's the case. I think you have to um give the fish a chance because just as it's harder for them to see things too. It's not like they have they might see and react better than we do to their prey, but they're not magic. I mean, it's not like it's not as if they aren't inhibited by the darkness as well. Um, so um give them a chance, you know, fish it up multi fish it multiple times. Some fish turn on a little later, and other time, you know, they it might take till midnight for the big guy in the run to start feeding. So like maybe you went past that spot at 11 and he just wasn't out yet. He wasn't ready to rock and roll yet, and then maybe at midnight he will be.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

So you might fish down a hundred yards section and then go fish up it or fish it back again, just kind of back and forth.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

I've done back and forth, I've done like laps on it. I've done where I like I fish it, and then I'll like if it's really good, I might fish other spots and hit it one more time before I leave for the night, you know.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

So yeah, go back to the car, drive someplace else, fish that spot, then get back in, come back.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

I wouldn't even go to that extent, more like you know, you say you have a 200 yard stretch or a hundred yard stretch, like you're talking about, and right at the end of it's like a spot you've had a lot of success, and maybe you spend 20 minutes there, 30 minutes there, move on, fish the rest of that run before you jump back in the car, hit that really good spot one more time because yeah, that might be productive. I have some even some spots that are smaller yet than that, that I'll just like three passes a night is my minimum. I will if I bother to go there, I'm gonna give it at least three tries because so many times the third the third try has produced.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Okay, define nice presentation. Because you said nice presentation. What is what would do you describe as like that was really good? That was like we talked about this earlier. Like, how do you know? Like that was good. That should have worked. If it's gonna work, that's gonna work.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

Yeah, it's a tricky one at night. So take that same problem we discussed that your first question of the night, and then now let's make it way harder to tackle because it's dark out. Um and because we don't understand fish at night quite as well as during the day. So that question becomes even more difficult. Um what I would say there is like a typical good presentation could just be a pretty mundane slow dead swing where I make a cast across the river. Not that hard to do. It's actually easier than getting dead drifts nymphing. It's just harder because like you can't see and like you don't know if your fly was close enough to the bank or something. But like the actual technique of the presentation isn't hard, it's just like doing it like at night. That's the hard part. So cast across, you know, maybe perpendicular to the bank. Um, maybe give an upstream mend to allow that fly to sink a little bit, or maybe let it drift a little bit naturally if it's top water, and then pick an angle that you're gonna hold your rod at and just hold it there and don't move it. And hold lock that rod in place. Uh, maybe it's uh angling downstream a little bit. I won't get too specific to test to not complicate, but pick an angle for your rod, hold it there, don't move it. Keep that thing there the whole time until the swing completely terminates, and your fly is dangling below your rod tip, however far you cast it, 30 feet, 40 feet downstream, whatever, whatever you did, right? Hold it there and think about something. Let it dangle. So often in our rivers, we get hits when the fly is just dangling there because they they treat it, they'll they'll follow it, it's moving, it stops, and it's wiggling in the current a little bit, and that's just enough to get them to eat it, it stops, you know. One thing that I think triggers a fish to eat something that stops is like think about anything that floats down the river that's the size of your fly, right? What can float down the river and just come to a dead stop that isn't alive? Can you think of a thing that can stop in the current and hold its position that's dead?

SPEAKER_00 48:38

No.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

Sticks don't do that, leaves don't do that. Uh a beer can floating down the river won't whatever trash with nothing anything won't do that, right? Um, only something that's alive can stop mid-current. And I think if it's a sitting there still and it's giving some wiggle because you tied it with marabou or you tied it with rabbit strip or something that moves, and they're looking at it, they're like, that's that's an easy meal. I'm gonna smoke that thing. And that's I think that's why they eat on the dangle, on the hang. So that's my rationale.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

It's alive and smaller than me. And it's moving.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 49:09

Uh what's one thing that you have picked up that has increased your numbers at night?

SPEAKER_02 49:16

Um, the hook setting thing we talked about earlier.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Um one of the You were missing a lot before.

SPEAKER_02 49:21

Yeah, you the the hookup ratio is something that holds a lot of people back, especially on top water. You'll get a lot of strikes. Um, but if you set the hook on those strikes, you're just ruining your chances of getting those fish because they'll often come back two and three and four times on the same pass. Sometimes they're trying to stun the prey, or sometimes they I think they just miss it. Uh, all of the above probably happens this time or that time. I don't overthink it because we can't really know, but they certainly slap at it with their bodies and tails. They certainly miss sometimes. So just leave it there. Don't pull it out until you feel something. That that has increased my efficiency at night. Um, in terms of getting the fish to eat, um, picking your times wisely, you know, going out when the flows are a little bit lower, going out when there's no moon, and then picking that water type that's not too fast, easy to fish, easy to visualize, those those things have helped me uh kind of pick it up when I was first kind of learning the ropes.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

So why is it important to not fish too deep? Because that that's not what I was expecting you to say. Because I like I was expecting like, okay, a mouse is kind of swimming along the surface or whatever, but if you're not doing that, like what is that kind of that higher in the water? What's important about that?

SPEAKER_02 50:32

So I think um it's easier for them to see things closer to the surface at night. I think that's part of it. And then I also think that the fish that are actually feeding at night are not on the bottom. I think they've positioned themselves in a place where they can access uh the top where there's more likely to have the surface where there's more likely to find a big food form coming down, or the shallows where there's more likely to find a crayfish you know out doing its thing at night because they do that. Um I think it's just a more of like where the fish want to be to capitalize on eating. There's fish everywhere at night, but we want to fish for the fish that are that are feeding, not the fish that are hanging out.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

Right. And you're you're saying, like we talked a little bit about this before, but yeah, maybe there's fish eating nymphs at night, but the big fish or the fish you're targeting, these fish are predatory, and a a large part of their food source is a part of their food source is uh other creatures that aren't bugs, right? Yeah, anything. So those those are not gonna be swimming around on the bottom, they'd be closer to surf. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 51:31

Yeah, anything, man. It could be it could be uh a wounded bay fish, it could be something that fell in that's more mammal-like, it could be um, it could be a bug skinny, maybe like a giant moth that's spluttering on the surface. They'll eat that too, right? So I don't I wouldn't box yourself into to any one food form. I don't think they're feeding a food form. It's not like it's not like the browns are like on the mouse eat hatch tonight. That never happens here. So we don't have like the New Zealand mouse plague, you know, that we don't have that. So like there's never something Is that a thing?

SPEAKER_00 51:59

Is there a New Zealand mouse plague hatch there?

SPEAKER_02 52:02

Watch that uh it's an old video on YouTube. It's called Once in a Blue Moon. It's like an older one of the mice. Yeah, there's like some mouse plague that happens periodically in New Zealand, and these guys are fishing mice like during the day and getting giant fish to rise to them. So, like, yeah, and they they cut open one of their bellies and there was like 10 mice. So yeah, yeah, it's a pretty pretty wild event. We don't have anything like that. So there are nights where I feel like the topwater might work better or the subsurface might work better. That's probably more like conditional stuff, like what the what the fish are doing. But um, probably your best night is when they're knocked on anything and they're kind of just out looking for whatever.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

That's and you're not really changing flies, right? You're not you're not doing a lot of changing flies.

SPEAKER_02 52:40

Not I don't change patterns, like I won't change from one streamer to another streamer. That to me is silly. Um, if I'm fishing six inches under the surface with one streamer, I don't think another is gonna yield a gigantically different result. I have uh you have confidence in your fly that you fish like that, fish it, because it's not like yeah, another fly tied with some extra legs is gonna be that much better. I will, however, like change the fly in order to change like the presentation dramatically, like going from subsurface to topwater, going from really big to maybe rather small, like going from like an articulated streamer to like a woolly bugger. That might be a change I would make. But I'm not gonna go from one big streamer to another big streamer. I'm not gonna switch from um from a Moorish mouse to a master splinter. I think that would be a silly change. Uh just fish whatever you've caught fish on before with confidence and uh you know, change your water types.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Uh think about where woollybugger is a good fly. That would be a reasonable fly to fish.

SPEAKER_02 53:36

An oversized woollybugger is a good subsurface night fly. Fish on maybe bigger than you would uh for your typical daytime program, but like yeah, tie a woolly bugger on a big old hook and that will work, you know. Um don't be afraid to make the hackle a little bit longer. Don't be afraid to uh you know wrap the collar with something that'll push some water. But yeah, just marabou is a magic magic material. Marabou off a hook would work at night, you know.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

Um because a lot of people can fish uh or a lot of people can tie a woolly bugger. Oh, yeah, that's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

Yeah, I think uh there's some really effective night patterns that anyone could tie that has that has basic tying skills, you know. Um I have a couple flies that are a little bit more involved, but I don't think you need that for success. Um, a big old woollybugger with some extra marabou and some extra extra stuff to push a little bit more water, have a little bit bigger profile so they can see it. Um you just beef up your daytime, you know, jig streamers, don't put weight on them, those will work.

SPEAKER_00 54:31

So Frank.

SPEAKER_02 54:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

Gonna start wrapping it up before we do. How can people find out more about you? Follow along, you're fly fishing, um, maybe schedule a guided trip, or just anything that you're excited about that you want people to know.

SPEAKER_02 54:46

Sure. So um, you know, I uh on Instagram, my Instagram handle is uh Frank Flyfishes. Um, you know, I guide for uh TCO Fly Shop and Relentless Fly Fishing, and so you can find me and book me through those websites like TCO. If you go on their website's uh guided trips tab, you can uh find me there. Um we have a new booking system where you can go and book the particular guide. So like you can pick me or Sam or any of our other great guides if you wanted a particular person and book that way. Uh you could send me uh a message on Instagram. Um you could uh feel free to throw my email in your show notes or whatever. All those contacts are good. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

What's your email?

SPEAKER_02 55:27

Uh Franklandisflyfishing at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 55:31

So simple enough there. Um from there, um, some events coming up. I'll be at the Lancaster Fly Fishing Show, which is like the last of the fly fishing show uh kind of circuit that they're doing. So that's that's a pretty good show for us here in PA. So if you're local to the Pennsylvania, Maryland, Jersey, it's not too far of a drive from any of those places. So come find me um beside the TCO booth at the Lancaster show. I'll be down there. I don't know when you're gonna air this. That's mid-March. So you know, you can cut that out if you're not airing it by then. But uh that's another place that I'll get it out sooner. So the people that's all good. That's just something that popped in my head. But no, man, but the the Instagram, the Instagram is the uh a good place that I think a lot of people are on, or if you're not on Instagram, the email directly, or uh you know, TCO, fly shop, and relentless fly fishing websites both have the necessary contact avenues there to find me there too.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

So cool. We will link to those things in the show notes so people can find that and find you and uh learn a little bit more. Last question. Are you ready? Sure. If you could go back to when you first started fly fishing and give yourself two pieces of advice, one more tactical, one more philosophical. What would you tell yourself to help you progress as a fly fisher?

SPEAKER_02 56:49

That's a temptation. Do one at a time here, I have to think. Um let's start with the philosophical one. I think that's actually easier. Um I would say the best piece of advice for on the philosophical side is all about expectations. Um if you can go into a fishing scenario with as few of expectations as possible, um, I think you're more apt to learn more in those and in that circumstance because you're you're not boxing yourself into whatever's coming your way. You're more likely to, you know, think outside the box, and you're also less likely to be disappointed on your outcome. So say you caught less fish than whatever, you know, it doesn't matter. If you can try and have no expectations, almost a Buddhist mindset of X, you know, kind of release all your desires of what you're trying to accomplish out there and just come what may. I think that's the Zen in the art of fly fishing. Yeah, just go Buddhist on it. I'm not a Buddhist or anything, but it makes sense to me from the fishing side of things. Um, just kind of let go of the uh the expectation and just let let come what may, and I think that's a good mindset. And I think you'll you'll try more interesting things. Um if you're not so bent out of shape because you didn't catch a big one or you didn't catch 20, or you didn't catch five, or you didn't catch one. Um, all those are valid. Like that's those are just holding you back on what you could be doing. So letting go of that. Um from the from the tactical side, I mean, I've always I've always enjoyed just like learning the tactical stuff. So I mean, if I was interested in something, I tried to learn it really fast. But I mean, I think uh something that might have helped me tactically earlier on was like if I could have fished with more people that were better than me to learn exactly what they were doing um and like copying their whether it's their casting or their presentations or their leader build or whatever, um, some people might not have the chance to do that. So, you know, that's where booking a guide could come in. But you don't have to book a guide. If there's someone that you fish with that's a little bit better than you, they've been fishing for two years longer than you have. I mean, that's probably good enough to fill that boat there. I mean, I didn't fish with anyone other than my dad for like a long time. And so I think having, you know, making an effort to branch out and fish with those guys would have helped the tactical stuff, like, you know, how to rig this up to get a little deeper, you know, how to cast a little better. Those those kind of things I think would have came faster had I surrounded myself with uh more skilled, more experienced guys earlier on.

SPEAKER_00 59:10

So good, good answer. Both good answers. Frank, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show. Congratulations again to you. I think that's super cool. And I'm excited for you. This is a cool part of your life, man, and you're gonna get this little guy into fishing, I know. And I wish you well with the guiding and all you've got going on with the TCO and Relentless Fly Fishing. And man, I learned a ton today, so thank you personally for that.

SPEAKER_02 59:36

Yeah, thanks, man. It was it was a blast. Thanks for having me on, appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

Thanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories, and artwork, check out my blog, an online gallery, at waitoutthere.com. If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey, please subscribe and share. Until next time, Wait Out There.