The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
WOT 235: Frank Landis - Part 1. Switching Leaders and Dry Fly Techniques in Pennsylvania
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In this episode we WadeOutThere for part one of our conversation with Frank Landis, from Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Frank grew up fishing with his father, and used fly fishing when he thought it was the best tactic to catch fish. By college he had completely crossed over and was fly fishing every chance he got.
Frank is a middle school teacher and became a part time fly fishing guide at his local fly shop after working on the floor for several years.
In Part 1 of our discussion, Frank shares his thoughts on Spring fishing in Pennsylvania, the mechanics of switching between his tight line nymphing rig and dry fly set up, and techniques for presentation on Pennsylvania’s trout streams.
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In this episode, we wait out there for part one of our conversation with Frank Landis from Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Frank grew up fishing with his father and used fly fishing when he thought it was the best tactic to catch fish. By college, he had completely crossed over and was fly fishing every chance he got. Frank is a middle school teacher and became a part-time fly fishing guide at his local fly shop after working on the floor for several years. In part one of our discussion, Frank shares his thoughts on spring dry fly fishing in Pennsylvania, the mechanics of switching between his tight line nymphing rig and dry fly setup, and techniques for presentation on Pennsylvania's trout streams. Welcome to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Shefchuk. At Wade Out There we believe fly fishing is special, but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There. Welcome Frank. Thanks for being on the Wade Out There podcast.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, man. Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00I want to start off with congratulations again on the newborn downstairs, so everyone else can mentally give you a congratulations. That's cool, man. Really cool. Little boy, January 2nd. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's been uh been a fun couple weeks here.
SPEAKER_00So is that uh affecting the fly fishing?
SPEAKER_02Are you Yeah honestly? It's the uh the longest I think I've gone without catching a fish since I broke my leg. So uh which I guess you'll talk about that as well here at some point. So uh yeah, I think it's uh the the the last time it was this long was then, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we are gonna talk a little bit about the broken leg, but um that's a good thing, right? That means you're doing it right, Frank. So good for you. Um anyway, yeah, congratulations. I think I want to start with how you got started in fly fishing. And have you always been in Pennsylvania? And how did that fly fishing uh begin for you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, always always been in Pennsylvania. Um I was fishing from a young age with my dad. Um, it wasn't always fly fishing, but my dad fly fished, so like the fly fishing side of it was always in the mix. So I didn't even think of it I just as fly fishing. I just thought of like, you know, there was this rod I could grab and that rod I could grab. And so I think I probably hooked fish on a fly rod sometime in elementary school. Um, dabbled a little bit more with fly tying by middle school. Um, and then it wasn't until like maybe I was in college that I like said, like, okay, I'm gonna like focus on this fly fishing thing and like try and actually get good at it versus just like something I grab here and there, something that's kind of a one-off. Um, I just kind of did whatever would work. And so, like, you know, as a little kid, it was like if fly fishing was like the easier option, my dad would hand me the fly rod and I'd catch an easy fish, and then after that stopped working, I'd go back to the corn or the spinners or the worms or you know, whatever else a 10-year-old is gonna do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's cool. A lot of people that I talk to, myself included, their father introduced them to fly fishing, or a relative or grandparent or something like that. Uh so I think that's more common. But the thing that I think is I don't know if it's unique. I don't know what your opinion is, but the fly tying in as a young person in elementary school, I hear that a lot. And I just I don't know if that's a Pennsylvania thing, or or I mean it's not comp um there's other people that that do that, but it just seems like it's one of the things about Pennsylvania that in my brain it's like that this mystical mist you know, kind of you know, everyone's it's part of the culture in a lot of the communities, and and kids at an early age are not just like going out with their dads, but they're tying flies and stuff and learning about bugs.
SPEAKER_02I think that's don't get me wrong. The fly tying at the younger ages is not always good, and nor was mine. Um I uh I'm a I'm a middle school teacher, that's my that's my day job, and I have I don't know how many kids I've you know have told me, like, oh I tie flies, and uh yeah, sometimes it's pretty rough. I do a fly tying club, and even kids who say they've tied flies before, it's not it's not too smooth. It's uh it's it's a challenge, but uh we work on it, and uh I see the same thing. Being a middle school teacher in my area, uh tons of kids come and say, like, yeah, I tie flies with my grandpa or my dad. And uh, you're right, I think it is cultural. Um a lot of people dabble. It's not as if everyone's out there, you know, knocking out these beautiful, you know, awesome flies, but like the fact that they can wrap the thread around the hook is uh is is pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, they know the basics. Like my son knows the basics. I got him, you know. But if he would if you went to tie flies with him, he'd be in the the previous category. Right, right.
SPEAKER_02Which is far, which is which is totally normal.
SPEAKER_00Which maybe that means that I need to tie flies with my son more. That's just maybe a uh reflection of my my parenting. But you got a whole life ahead of you with that little one to figure that out. So that's awesome. Um why did guiding make sense to you? And when did that become like a thing that you were uh interested in pursuing? Because you said you're a teacher as well, so I would imagine that's could be busy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I mean, uh guiding I think is a great side gig um for for somebody like a teacher. You have the summers off, so that's gonna free up a certain amount of time. Um, unfortunately in Pennsylvania, that's not our best trout season, our best trout season in the spring. So I I wish my summer vacation went from April to June and not you know June to August. But um regardless, um I got my start working at TCO Fly Shop in Boiling Springs as just like a part-time job and really just got that job because I l I moved into this area, got a teaching job. It was like the local fly shop. Uh, one of the guys that I knew that was working in there uh was on his way leaving. So I put in an application, got hired in there, worked on the floor for maybe three years, and saw these guys coming in after their trips and thought that would be fun and thought I had the chops to do it and kind of you know, you build your reputation and get your foot in the door and um get that opportunity, and it was just uh kind of you know rolled naturally from there. So that's how that all went down.
SPEAKER_00That's cool. What kind of teach you said middle school teacher?
SPEAKER_02So middle school social studies, uh seventh grade, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Social studies, seventh grade. Okay, that's cool. Um I like social studies when I was in uh middle school. Uh let's go back to when you were in between guiding and elementary school tying flies. Sure. Do you remember uh some of the early challenges that you faced, or does anything stand out as particularly kind of like uh not a light bulb moment, but just like a a an understanding that you achieved that kind of like opened the door for you to learn more about fly fishing or do better? Like, for example, for me, I started fly fishing in Montana, it was dry flies, all I knew was dry flies, that's all I had, because it was just like that was the box of flies in the in the trapper's cabin. You know, that was all that's all there was. And then when I went to Colorado and my fly fishing mentor started taking me, it was like really tiny flies, really tiny nymphs, and I learned about nymphing, and and so for me it was I mean, it's a broad answer, but nymphing would be No, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So, like I told you with my dad. My dad was kind of the guy you're describing, the dry fly guy. When he fished, it was dry flies. Nymphing was the thing he would maybe do if the fish weren't biting, they weren't rising, and he just had to do it. He would throw some split shots, maybe sink a dry fly or an old wet and try and you know dredge one up that way. And it was very unrefined. And, you know, the way he did it in in retrospect wasn't effective. Um, and I didn't realize of that at the time. But we were um remember we were fishing like a delayed harvest, which in Pennsylvania that's stocked water that uh has some regulations that allows it to um not you know not have harvest for the majority of the year. And we were in the winter um fishing randomly just because I don't even remember why. We just wanted to go. Some guy was uh indicator nymphing, and he was just yanking fish out of water that we had just passed there, and I just thought, like, I asked my dad, like, what is that guy doing? And he said, uh, that guy fishes a lot more than we do. And uh, you know, and I realized, okay, so there's more to this than just like, you know, throwing on a fly and casting it around and hoping for the best. Um, so I looked at nymphing as like this uh almost like a dark art, like this, like, what is going on? You can't see it, it's under the water. So I think the uh the thing in that transitional era that kind of made me take the leap was like attempting. And this didn't happen. Like I said, that was earlier, that story is earlier. It didn't happen until college where I was really like, let's learn nymphing, let's learn how to do it, and started with an indicator. Um, and then the big the big thing early on when you have no mentor to teach you is like, am I doing it right? Or is it the fish? Is it just a bad is it a bad day, or is it something I'm doing? And that's the question I see when I'm guiding people, beginners. They just want to know, like, is it me or is it the fish? Or is it the situation? Is it the condition? So, like, like ironing out that early stage of like, is it what what what is the actual reason that I'm not having success? Is it my fault? Um, and I think uh I I took a lot of it on me, like, oh, something I gotta do better technique-wise. And I think just kind of ignoring the conditions and focusing on what I'm doing was the uh the ticket to kind of getting better.
SPEAKER_00So how do you handle that? I mean, how do you what do you tell people when they ask that question or they have that question? I mean, yeah, unless you fish enough to to really have the experience, you know, and confidence. I think for me it's confidence, right? If I'm yeah, if I'm confident, I know, well, that's as good as it's gonna get, man. That's a good at really good drift. Yeah, and that's uh that's the right fly, or pretty darn close, you know. Like uh, is there other things that you tell people or how do you help people with it?
SPEAKER_02So so if I'm guiding someone and they ask that question, um, it's easier to bridge that gap because I can tell them like that was a good drift. Uh we have a fly on networks. I reassure them those things because they, you know, they look at me as the expert or they look at me as the person who uh should kind of uh affirm some of those questions that they have. So it's I think it's easy when you're guiding. As I can say, like, that drift wasn't good for this reason, this drift was good for that reason. And what I try and do is I try and give people enough feedback so that like even if the fishing is going, you know, slowly or they can take it onto their own fishing after they leave, is hey, if you do what you just did there over and over and over again, that's good enough to catch fish at a certain rate, you know, it's good enough to catch fish most of the time. And sure, there are there's exceptions, and if there wasn't exceptions, this wouldn't be a very fun thing to do. But um, I think just like kind of giving them the reassurance. Now, if someone would ask ask me that question like in the fly shop when I wasn't guiding, just kind of working in the store selling flies or selling rods or whatever, that's a way more, way more difficult question because you can't see what they're doing, you can't tell them, you know, but you can say get a dead drift and you can be the best at um describing things through words as you want, but people just aren't gonna uh fully get it until they see it in action, until you give them some feedback on what they're doing. So uh just give them that feedback and and they sense that you you mentioned confidence in the fishing. People can sense the confidence if you're a guide. If you're confident in what they're doing, you can be like, yeah, dude, that's gonna work. Yeah. I tell people all the time, I promise you that's good enough. Just keep at it. Because you know, as you know, there's times where it's just slow and you do everything right and it doesn't work. And that's the most confusing for a beginner angler, is that you can do everything right, and then and sometimes it won't work. Now, if you do everything right all the time, you're gonna catch a lot of fish. But there are times where, like, yeah, some everything is going right, every the drift is good, the fly is good, the depth is good, whatever, you don't always catch a fish, and that's part of what makes it constantly intriguing.
SPEAKER_00So Right, is even the best anglers don't catch a fish every time they cast, right? Yep, precisely. If it was just like if you're good enough, then you will catch fish, like yes and no. You know, like that's true, but it's but it's also not true in in uh in a blanket type statement. And I think that's one of the that's one of the biggest benefits that I see in hiring a guide, even for like a half day or if you go someplace new, it gives you that confidence to continue the rest of the the time that you're there or the rest of the time on that river, is you're like, okay, at least I know if I have things to work on, which we all have things to work on, but at least I know what I need to work on. Um, if he's saying that I need to mend better or whatever, I can focus on that, or if he's saying it's good. I mean, I remember being in Montana and I went with a guide uh one day at the beginning of a trip on the Bitter route, and we caught some fish, you know, but it was like halfway through the day, and we had stopped, wasn't lunch, we stopped uh put the raft in, and we were we were fishing a side channel, and he's like, I'm gonna take you to this side channel, it's gonna be great, you know. We always catch fish in there. So I'm like, sweet, that sounds awesome. And we're dry fly fishing, and I throw it, you know, I cast in there and I mean I feel good, and I'm not catching fish, right? And I just I'm I'm he's kind of watching me and I'm casting and I mean I'm mentioning, it's looking, I'm like, I look at him like I just kind of like raise my hand up like you know what what else can I do? And he and he's like he just said uh the fish has a vote, man. Just stop that's fine. Let's keep on keeping on. Let's keep let's go fish someplace else, I guess, you know. So um I think that's cool that you say that, dude. Um let's talk about your leg. Because when I saw that, I mean lots of people have injuries, and uh certainly uh fly fishing guides have injuries and stuff, but I don't know. I was just curious about your uh mentality, you know, the the mental aspect, physical aspect of that. You know, when I get hurt, I just can't go fishing, and it's not it's not probably as big of a deal, you know. I guess it depends. Depends on every person, but what was that like for you? And like uh did you do anything to help you with fishing afterwards, or what was that process of getting back into it?
SPEAKER_02Sure, yeah. So that was a whole experience, man. So I broke my ankle, and it really I didn't I learned this, uh, your ankle and the lower part of your leg, it's all the same bone. So I had a spiral fracture, my fibula, uh, popped off a piece of my tibia, completely dislocated my foot from my you know, joint. It was a mess. And I did it by sliding, playing kickball with uh seventh graders on an Astroturf field. I tried to slide into third base and um my my toe caught, and when I like rolled back, it just exploded. Oh man. Yeah, it sounds real. Sorry, but that's too graphic, but that's okay. Completely blew up the lower leg, uh was facing the wrong direction, not a compound fracture or anything, but it was uh it was uh you know a bad time. Yeah, it wasn't fun, and so uh, you know, carted off on the ambulance and yeah, surgery a week later. Um, and then it was, you know, that was that was in May. So that's like prime time fishing and guiding in Pennsylvania. Also, that was the year of Brood X cicada hatch. So like we hit the 17-year periodical cicadas that come off in June, and so um that was right before all the excitement of that, right in my area too. They were they were coming off, and I had friends sending me pictures of like 21-inch brown trout that they caught on cicadas out of like these little creeks that like you never find these fish. Like, yeah, so I missed out on some some good fishing stuff, but uh and they're like, Don't worry, Frank, you'll have your chance in another five years. Exactly. Yeah, so we have one this year, so I need to get my redemption. It's a little further north up in central PA, but uh get my redemption on the cicadas this year.
SPEAKER_00So um, no kickball for you then.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So I my wife banned me from playing kickball with the kids. I still do it, I just don't slide. So uh but yeah, so yeah, breaking the ankle, you know, you have the surgery, um, played in seven screws, and then you had um uh like uh maybe I did a month of PT in July um after it kind of healed. The the PT I really pushed because I had the goal. I had a trip planned for a while of going to Montana uh to Gardner and doing the the North Yellowstone thing and fishing with uh a friend out there, and then I was gonna drive down to Colorado for a friend's wedding. So I did this giant road trip. My wife flew out and met me in Colorado. So it was like Yes, that sounds awesome. Oh, yeah, I do. Yes. It's like one of my goals every year is I try and travel out west every summer. I did I've done it every year for the last, I think, seven or eight years, except except for the COVID summer. I didn't do it then. But every other year I did it. And that time was, you know, will will I do it that time? And I I pulled it off. And so like that was like my motivating, that was like the you know, the uh the treat I was chasing. And so the I really pushed hard in the physical therapy. I whatever I could do physically to make it improve faster, pushing even if it was a little painful, I did it. Um, whether that be just standing on it sooner. And, you know, I read a lot about ankle injuries. And, you know, I I like to like incessantly learn about things I'm interested in. And all of a sudden I became interested in ankle anatomy. So I became pretty well read on that and understood like what I could do to push it and not, you know, make it dangerous on myself. And uh I did. And I it was I was gimpy. Don't get me wrong. I was uh it was a rough drive out there by myself. I drove from I think I left Pennsylvania on a Thursday. I know I do not advise this to anybody, even in good health. I left Pennsylvania on a Thursday at like 4 p.m. And I think I rolled into Livingston, Montana on Saturday at noon with like very limited sleep. And uh I was like driving with my ankle like propped up in the car, probably also not advised uh to keep the swelling down. And so that was the whole ordeal, but it was just like having something to push yourself forward and get to um was helpful in the recovery. So I'm out there and I wasn't myself in terms of uh hiking, but I was really surprised with what I could do waiting. Um I used the waiting staff, and I really relied on that waiting staff, both to navigate the the river itself, but also just the bank, the steep hills, um, you know, that you're that you're walking around in the Rocky Mountain West. Uh so I used that waiting staff was like a super helpful tool, and I used it um in a way that I have you know haven't needed to use it since fortunately.
SPEAKER_00Um do you still use a waiting staff? Did it like rub off on you at all? Or that was just a one-time thing?
SPEAKER_02No, it's one more thing to carry, so I don't take it. But um I do uh I do use it uh situationally. I've used we're gonna talk about night fishing a little bit. I use it at night on certain rivers that are really tough to wade. Uh but uh no, I don't I don't in I don't like having it dangling off and I don't think that I need it. I'm a pretty aggressive waiter. I'm I'm pretty confident in my wading abilities, so um I just don't, but I think that uh there's definitely a a use for it. And I know like certain certain rivers that I guide on, I almost don't let anyone go on them without a waiting staff just because it can't be that helpful.
SPEAKER_00So you'll make them use a waiting staff, but you'll you won't have one?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, do as I say, not as I do, kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00All right, fair enough. Well, we are gonna talk about night fishing, but I kind of want to put a pin in the trip to Montana because I also want to talk about dry-fly fishing a little bit. And you mentioned this earlier that in your opinion, or I don't know if it's common knowledge or whatever, but springtime is one of the best times to fish in Pennsylvania. Sure. And um First I want to ask you why is it important for you to get out west? You said that's a goal for you, so why is why is that is it just because it's super fun and great fishing, or is there a reason why it's got to be Montana out west, not Montana, but out west or so it's a good it's a good question because I do ask myself like why don't I do some traveling that's not so far on the East Coast that I have never done?
SPEAKER_02Like I've never gone to the Smokies, I've not done a little bit of New England, but I haven't done you know excessive amounts up that way. So there's some stuff that that frankly sounds pretty cool that I just don't do. So like, you know, why the Rocky Mountain trip? Um it's many reasons. Um, number one, um, I the sense of adventure of like going somewhere so dramatic, I guess would be a good word for it, so so vast and so different. Um I like the adventure. Um, you know, I'm a couple with camping. I'm camping most of the time. I'm backpacking sometimes, and I'm doing some you know other stuff to make it cool. My wife is totally into the Colorado 14er stuff, so you know, we got engaged on a 14er. So all that stuff is like, you know, we do a little bit of the other stuff with it too. The the mountains are are just a cool, it's a cool atmosphere. It's just like, I don't know. It's hard, you know. If you've been there, you get it. And you get it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I know I like it. I was just kidding. Um, you live in the mix of it, so so you know. Um, I think uh the the sense of adventure, but then from the fishing side, it's like, you know, I'm a trout guy. I know we have a lot of we have a lot of bass, smallmouth bass guys here, but I I really am trout guy. And the the the Rocky Mountain West is like the trout uh it's the trout pilgrimage of the of the states, I believe, in a lot of ways. Um and then also the the trout fishing in Pennsylvania starts to suck when the trout fishing in the Rocky Mountains starts to get good again after runoff, right? So, you know, you have the runoff that comes May and June, and then as things start to drop down, a lot of those, especially if the high altitude stuff in Colorado gets really good in July and August. Um, a lot of those bigger rivers become weightable at that time of year. So, right when we are starting to deal with like, you know, thermal problems and maybe you don't want to fish for trout during midday. Um out there, there's a lot of places that are just like, man, it's prime. It's like that's the time to be out there. Obviously, every, you know, every every year is different with the snowpack and stuff, but I want to wanna let's let's say it's a normal snowpack year out there. I find that that right around the time PA starts to get a little, you know, you're in the doll drums and the the the Colorado, the Montana, the Wyoming, and that stuff can be really great. So it's like a nice little way to transition from, okay, my fishing is starting to falter, let's go do some good fishing somewhere else.
SPEAKER_00So do you find that you are more expensive? Excited about the dry fly fishing when you go out there, or it doesn't matter, streamer both, whatever it takes. I mean, is there is that part of the draw at all? Because for even for me, I like I I like dry fly fishing. A lot of people like dry fly fishing, and Montana is not always big dry flies, but like one of the reasons I like to go to Montana is in general, I feel that I have more success with bigger flies, certainly than Colorado, and certainly with dry flies. And that's kind of exciting to put on big Stimmy or you know uh Chubby and just like watch that happen, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so the the dry fly fishing out there, I've I've had hidden hidden miss dry fly fishing in the West. Um, even in Montana, I've had some uh fish some rivers that are known for the dry fly fishing that just didn't pan out for, you know, not even the whole time, but for portions of the time that I'm there. And I enjoyed nymphing with size 10 and 8 stone flies in and around the Missoula area when I was out there one time, that I had a blast because you don't really throw, either there's a situation or two where you can throw those big old nymphs here in PA, but that's not really the program here. So uh even doing, even just nymphing gigantic nymphs that I don't normally get to that was was fun to me. But yeah, certainly the the the dry fly fishing out there is a little bit different. Um the uh the hopper-oriented stuff uh is not something that we have here. So getting in those situations when they present themselves is pretty pretty fun to fish the big old dry fly. Um we can only really do that like yeah, situationally or like in the in the brook trout streams here, you can get a little tiny fish to eat a big old dry fly, but like getting a big old fish to eat a giant dry fly is a different story. So when those situations happen, that's definitely a draw, but let's certainly have to re- I would go out there if I would only, even if I was only allowed to, let's say they meant dry fly fishing illegal, I still think I would go go out there and fish nymphs and streamers. And uh I do a lot of, I've done a lot of streamer fishing out in the West as well, which I think has uh been uh some of the streamer techniques where you you know that we use in PA that taking them out there have been super effective just because I think people don't fish the same way. Uh so you're giving those fish a fresher look. And I've had a ton of fun fishing streamers in places that uh people uh would say they're they're you know pressured fisheries, uh super, you know, well known, getting a ton of guys there. And I'm catching, you know, pretty respectable numbers, uh, you know, fish with with the with the streamer techniques we do here. So it's been fun to kind of see that the the fish are fish and techniques translate, and sometimes they just need something a little different. I'm sure there are some uh some Montana and Colorado guys that would come to my water and do something that would surprise me, you know, fishing a little itty bitty nymph or uh giant dry fly and pull a fish that would surprise me. But uh yeah, so I think you know, crossing over and doing the things I do here out there is fun too.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, that is cool. Um let's stick with dry flies and let's stick with spring. What what is what is uh is that one of the things that makes spring exciting, dry fly fishing?
SPEAKER_02I think so. Um probably March is the time frame where we first get our really good um, you know, the the first signs of some life in terms of the bug situation. And um, you have blueing olives, you know, small mayfli, size 18 or 20, typically, they really get going in March, and that's like your first hatch. And then it progresses through, and you we have a great variety of bugs in our uh limestone influence creeks that we have through, you know, central and south central Pennsylvania. That's my neck of the woods. And you know, so we have we have great Mayfly hatches and uh you know a storied history of dry fly fishing from the terrestrial side as well. Like I'm uh right on top of the little torque um in Carl in Carlisle, where you know that's where grasshopper fishing was invented. So um there's that too. And yeah, springtime is when that stuff first wakes up. Uh but the Mayfly, the Mayfly hatch matching game is uh it's a fun time out here.
SPEAKER_00So what is some of the things you think about when you're matching the hatch out there that maybe is, I don't know, unique or underappreciated in Pennsylvania springtime?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think if you had a Mayfly hatch out west versus here, I don't know that too many of the um too many of the core principles would be different. Uh I don't think I don't think it would be terribly different different at all. Um, trying to think here, you know, we have um, you know, let's just take the blue wing Dolly hatch, for example. We have some rivers that get a lot of pressure, just you know, like same out, same as out there. Um and sometimes uh giving them the pattern that not they don't see every day that's not tied in the flash shop, or or maybe uh pull the fly out of the out of the bit of the flag shop that maybe isn't the one that's written up on the chalkboard that's still close enough to you know the hatch that you're trying to match just to give those fish a slightly different look, especially if they're in pressured water, because we have a lot of anglers here in Pennsylvania. There's a lot of these fish see the flies. Uh we don't have the remote fisheries that that the West has. You can't just walk forever, and that doesn't guarantee you solitude here. Typically, if you walk too far here, you just find a different road. So uh you're gonna deal with the pressure and you're gonna deal with people. So, you know, on the fly pattern side, mixing up uh the pattern and giving them something just a little bit different. It doesn't have to be too dramatically different, just something that's not the run of the mill. Uh you know, not the run of the mill thing. Um but uh yeah, that'd be that'd be one step, I guess. But no, I don't think it'd be too much different. I I think the the core principles are the same.
SPEAKER_00Is there certain water types that you um target differently, different times of day, like riffles or uh slower water or I mean this is a loaded question, I get it, because the answer is dude, it depends. But sure, that's always the answer. Just whack, you know, just is there is there things you notice dry-fly fishing out there in the springtime that you know, as far as uh as far as reading water or and and presenting to different type water types that you think is important to understand? Is that fair? Does that sound sure?
SPEAKER_02So like I guess like a simple thing would be like if you're fishing some faster water, I think that gives you some more room for error in your presentation. So like the surface is a little bit broken. Um certain hatches will tend to um be better or worse in different water types, but some hatches the bug is just kind of floating down and it could be in any kind of water type. So um in that broken water where not like not like hard pocket water, not like white water, but just where that surface is a little bit um busier, right? And there's more going on. There's some more room for error there. Um if you throw a lot of slack in the into a presentation in that broken water, the fish will be pretty forgiving. They're also a little bit more forgiving of the fly pattern. Um, the more challenging water is that smooth, glassy stuff. Um, that uh the fish have a little bit more time to inspect your fly. The presentations have to be better because the currents are kind of more even and consistent and everything's coming down together. There's less variability. So when your fly is doing something wrong, I think the fish notice it more. So I think fishing the uh the slower, the slower water is a little bit more challenging. Sometimes it requires you to present flies from upstream with a reach cast kind of feed line to them. Um talk to anybody from like the cat skills at the Delaware, uh, you know, Upper Delaware system guys, uh, with uh that's a lot of flatter, slower water and big wide river super pressured fish. Same story. And that's the whole name of the game there is just kind of land a big reach cast and a lot of slack and letting them see your your fly first. Um that'd be like the the situational thing that changes from water type to water type. Um you can um get away with shorter casts when the water's broken because you can get closer to fish, which allows you to like if you wanted to fish uh dry dropper with your Euro Nymphing rig, you could do that, you know, in broken water. You can't really do that when the water smooths out, you have to you have to be able to cast a line and you know, uh mend line and you know have line control in that way. A lot of guys out here really like the the tight line nymphing, the euro nymphing, and that's kind of you know taken over here as I'm as I'm sure it has in many places. But um I think uh you go out on uh a pressured waterway now versus 10 years ago, and so many guys are Euro nymphing, and I see so many more guys trying to fish dry flies with those rigs, which can be very effective. Um but uh when you get to those certain water types, there's no uh there's no substitute for just putting a fly line on and really casting and you know making presentations that are a little farther away and a little more challenging to make. And um, yeah, that's that's how you have to do it in some of this water that we have here. So but that's probably said that's probably true out your way as well.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, no, I think there's two things about that. Uh I have heard a lot of good things about the dry dropper with the Euro rig or the tight lining. And that's something that I I I mean, I didn't start experimenting with tight lining and Euro nymphing really, I mean, really until after I was a good ways into this podcast, and I was like, well, I've been talking to all these people, maybe I ought to like get into this or check this out. Yeah, give it a sh give it a shot. And I like it, you know. But one of the things that that I've always done is that kind of dry dropper where I'm just going to keep all the line off the water and just put the you know, put the fly, the dry fly directly on the water. Um you don't need to be necessarily Euro nymphing to do that, but it's like high stick or whatever. Yeah, high stake. I think that that's something that is um I don't know, sometimes it's overlooked. And I think you bring up a good point that uh your ability to do that depends a lot on water type that you're fishing, right? And if you've got bigger, slower water, it's not as easy to get that close and be able to do that. So uh if you are nymphing and you have that opportunity, uh that's something to keep in mind that I don't know that I think uh about quite as often. Do you can you talk a little bit about this is the other this is the other thing I wanted to bring up is I think sometimes people hesitate to when they're in that nymphing mode, uh myself included, they hesitate to do the the switch, right? To go over. So what's something that you use in your brain as a trigger for it's time, it's time to do the switch. Is that based on planning ahead of time and just knowing like, dude, this is the time of day that the the BWOs are coming off and so I'm gonna just get ready for it ahead of time, or do you you have to see things, or do you uh there's some of that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's definitely some prep mental preparation. If you're fishing Spring Creek up in Central PA in March, you better have Blueing Dollies, you better be ready to go with the dry fly. If not, you're you're really missing a fun thing to do. So so being ready to anticipate those ha hatches uh certainly is a factor. But let's say even if even if it's not something expected, maybe I'm fishing in the winter and there's a fish rising to midges that I wasn't really planning on seeing, and you know, that hey, let's let's do that because why not? It's fun, and for no other reason than you would like to, you want to. Um, I want to see a fish rise a few times in a row, and I want to kind of see it in a rhythm. That one fish rhythmically feeding on top, and that I think that rhythm is important, the sporadic one-off rises. Um, that's like that's chasing, man, that's chasing a dream, man. That's a that that might not be uh too productive. But if you find one fish and in uh let's take the winner, like the slowest dry fly time, we're we're January now, or sorry, no, it's February, losing track of time with this baby times times uh Oh, you're doing great, man.
SPEAKER_00Sleep deprived. Frank is street sleep deprived, you're you're knocking it out of the party.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we're already in February. Time is flying, but uh yeah, so mid-February, same, same deal, it doesn't matter. Uh if I see a fish rising in some glassy slow water, maybe I was planning on fishing streamers or nymphs that day, but here we go. We got one going. If I can pick on what pick up on any sort of rhythm that that fish is giving me, that is enough that I that will make it worth it to switch over to dry flies and attempt to catch it. If there's no rhythm and there's no pattern to the way they rise, then I will keep doing the nymphing or streamer fishing. But uh yeah, even if it's like in in 10 minutes it rose three times and it kind of rose evenly, that's a that's a tough fish to catch because it's rising every three or four minutes. So you kind of have to time your fly passing it at that point, but it's a catchable fish.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02You might spend hours or an hour, or as long as you decide trying to play the cat and mouse game of catching that fish, but it's a catchable fish, no the no less, because it's has some type of rhythm. Typically, more more than that in 10 minutes would be better. Uh, but that all depends. And so let's take that concept and put it to the spring time. If you're seeing the bugs and there's some fish coming up and you would like to fish dry flies, there's no reason not to just do it. Um, I in my opinion, it's it's it's fun, and you have all the time in the world to nymph when uh when that's not happening, because it isn't always happening when fish are rising. So any sort of pattern of the rising, any sort of rhythm, that to me makes it worth it right away.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think rhythm is really important. That's definitely something that has helped me or kind of put me over the the hump when I've been nymphing. Uh do you talk me through the transition gear-wise? Like what uh tips can you give to people? Because I think people uh aren't gonna do things if they're not easy, right? I don't think that if if you can't make it so it's not a pain in uh it's not a pain, then uh uh people are less likely to do it. This is totally myself included, and I know I've said that a lot. This is true. But so what can you tell people to help them with that transition so that if because a lot of people say they love to dry fly fish, but nymphing is usually like a lot of times of the day, nymphing is more productive depending on the season and spending a lot of stuff, but like just in general, in my experience where I fish, that that's kind of the way it goes, and then there's opportunities for dry-fly fishing when hatches are happening and fish are eating on the surface, but they're not always eating on the surface. So when you do have that opportunity, and let's say you went out and you were Euro nymphing or tightlining, and now you have this other opportunity mechanically, what are you doing and what tips could you give people?
SPEAKER_02I think the one thing that I see that holds people back in this area is like not being confident with the knots. So from a from a this is more of a beginner tip, but being really confident in your knots and being able to tie a clinch knot and a blood knot and a surgeon's knot, kind of really easily easily without worrying about it and not not stressing about it. Uh, that's the number one thing. Like be confident and in like you changing your setup. So from the beginner perspective, like that's for those in that boat, uh, that's what you got to do is practice your knots while you're watching TV. Do a lot of reps, get really good at them, and that'll help you be more willing to change. Um, more intermediate to advanced tip there. Um, and this is maybe kind of more gonna more speak to what I do. Yeah. Um, a lot of these guys today that are nymphing are using very specialized equipment, maybe an 11 foot two-weight or something. And those rods and the leaders and and all the tackling gear that goes along with that is so effective at doing what it does. Um, but they're not as as versatile. And so I I dabbled in the competition world a just just a little bit, like not a lot. I did a handful of comps when I first started kind of working at the flag shop, and then once I got the opportunity to get to guide, I kind of got away from it. But um, so I I did one, I got while I went down the road of you know, micro leaders and the the super specialized equipment to maximize to absolutely maximize um every little thing that you do. And so that's because that's become popular for good reasons. So guys have these setups, but yeah the downside of those setups is when things change on the river, um, you are less equipped to change as well. So it starts with kind of the rod and and and setup that I that I have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's like you you reach a tipping point, right? Where it's like, oh, okay, this this tight lining is really good, it's really good, and it's awesome. I catch more fish. And then you kind of over this hump, and once you're over the hump, then like you're you're like jumped into the deep end, right? I feel like like now I'm like, this is unless we do like what you're about to describe, right? And then we have like a plan uh to set us up for success, for being flexible, right? Because that's important, I think.
SPEAKER_02Certainly, yeah. So um you had Sam Gauld on your podcast, and yeah, him and I have had this conversation, I think, like I don't know how many times between the two of us talking about versatility, but like we both are 10 foot four-weight guys. So um I'm not a Euro nymphing 10-foot four-weight. So not that it's a bad rod by any means. Look at the uh Sage makes the 10-foot four-weight ESN. That's a softer noodley kind of a rod. It's just more of a heavy-duty Euro nymphing rod. We're fishing like stiffer 10-foot four-weights that are designed to cast the fly line first, right? And so they aren't as good at Euro Nymphing, right? They don't cast the lightest leaders as well. They aren't as sensitive. But the advantage there is when you do want to put a streamer on, when you do want to put uh cast a line with the dry fly, uh, they are way more equipped to do all the different things pretty well. It's like the jack of all trades, master of one, saying it's it's the same, it's the same rationale. So um, we're choosing to go um with the uh with the versatile setup. And so what I like to do is I'll have like uh my normal fly line on my reel. And I don't I don't use a normal I don't use a year, I don't use a Euro Nymphing fly line. Like I don't use the BIPS.
SPEAKER_00I gotta interrupt you. I gotta interrupt you. When I started tightlining, I I had them wrap all I wrapped the whole thing in 20-pound maximum. I mean, I was like, I didn't I didn't had no fly line on there. I was I was just like, I guess this is my new fly line. I don't know. Like that's how that's where I started, which is embarrassing because I probably asked a hundred people on the show like how they're set it up. And um this was a long time ago, so I cut myself some slack, but yeah. Step one, you still have fly line on your reel.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's still a I have like a regular, like I use uh a stiffer 10-foot four-way, I use a Scott-centric 10-foot four-way, and then uh, which is like my favorite rod, and then I have like an SA Infinity on there, which is like a half-size heavy line, which is just nice for the enclosed casting. It did cast well with lighter lines too. But um, if I'm Euro nymphing with it, I then just you know will um tie straight onto the loop a butt section of maximum chameleon that's pretty long of one size, keeping it real simple. Um, it could be 15, 12, 8 pound, whatever. I kind of think the the nice balance for fishing streamers, fishing nymphs, and kind of doing a little bit of both of those things, or even throwing a bobber here and there would be like 12 pound. So I use like 30 feet of 12 pound, like three or four feet of cider that's the same exact diameter as the 12 pound. So pretty thick stuff compared to what a lot of these guys are doing. And then uh tipping ring to my tippet, and that's it. That's that's my own nymphing leader. So by the time it's all said and done, it's over 30 feet, so that means it doesn't come off the reel very much.
SPEAKER_00All right. I gotta let's go back. So you got your fly line, and then off the fly line, are you tying anything that is like a a short butt section with a tippet ring that you could adjust off of or just a long butt section to the cider.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. So one diameter, really. It's a level, it's a level leader the whole way, so like one one size. So that you could loop it to your fly line, you could clinch knot into the loop. Both are fine.
SPEAKER_00Um that's like 30 feet long, you said?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it ish. I don't measure it, but I kind of eyeball it. Yeah, okay. It doesn't that that that length truly doesn't matter. It's just like you just need enough that's long enough that your fly line isn't coming out when you're normally fishing nymphs.
SPEAKER_00So okay. Yeah. And then you got your cider, yeah. Uh and then you've got more uh tip it to the ring and then more tip it.
SPEAKER_02Yep. And if you if you wanted to taper that butt section, it would cast a little bit differently, like it would form a loop a little bit better. If you wanted to go way thin to like maximize the nymphing effectiveness with life lies, you certainly could do that. But I'm like trying to slice it as close down the middle to just be as simple and as versatile as possible. The true mono rig guys will taper it down so that they're they they have probably a little bit more ability in the cast and in terms of like their control of the cast. Um, but uh, you know, when you're uh when you need to throw a leader together in the rain beside your car and you just need to make it fast and like you don't have the time for, you know, just uh you know, 30 feet of 12 pound will get the job done. And if you you know, if you understand how to make a good presentation, yes, you aren't maximizing it like the micro leader guys are. You're not gonna get quite as good of a drift at quite as far away. I understand that, and I'm okay with that sacrifice. If I want to push the micro stuff, I will. But for me, it's like I'll just tight line nymph with this until it's time to switch, and then when I do switch, you just you just cut it off or loop it off. I tie a clinch knot on that loop just so I can cut it and don't have to run it all through. Um cut it off and spool it up onto a like a spool I keep in my vest, and then uh then I uh attach a regular dry fly leader to my loop and then I'm fishing dry flies. So it's as easy as a leader change with uh a little bit more winding around the spool than you'd want to, but okay, you know, that's a small sacrifice.
SPEAKER_00So Okay. I'm gonna keep I'm gonna we're gonna keep I'm sticking. We're gonna talk nightfly fishing. We're gonna get there. Yeah. For people listening, because that's gonna be in the title of the of the episode. But I'm gonna I'm gonna like nitnoid you on this, okay? So after the cider, before the tippet ring, what do you have?
SPEAKER_02Just it's just nothing. It's it goes from cider. I use the uh like the tri-colored stuff that has black in it because I just think it stands out good. Got it. Cider to tip it ring. Uh that's it.
SPEAKER_00All right, I misunderstood you there. Okay, so cider to tip it ring, and you talked about you know you could use different things for the butt section, but whatever. Okay. And then from the then you got your tippet. And then so when you are switching from your leader that we just described, which you're using for nymphing, um then you're going to just cut it all off right at the loop of the uh fly line. Yep. At the butt section of your leader. You're gonna cut the butt section of the leader off. Now you've got the loop of your fly line, and now you're gonna tie on. A nylon floating nine nine foot five X, whatever you, whatever you decide is best. You're gonna tie that however you want to tie it on, clinch knot to the loop or something like that.
SPEAKER_02I loop to loop them on the shoulder leaders, I'll loop to loop just because it doesn't take that long. The reason I do a clinch knot on the long mono rig is because when you take it off, you would have to run like 30 some feet through that little loop and this takes forever. And then when or when when you put it on and off, you know what I'm saying? So like for me, it's just when you have such a long amount of material, that's where I use the clinch knot. You know, for say for present and and it, you know, when you cut inch by inch off of a 30-foot leader, it doesn't do much damage. When you cut a couple changes on a dry fly leader, let's say you change it five or six times in a season or in a couple weeks or whatever it is, you depending on how much.
SPEAKER_00Well, your leaders are lasting way longer than my leaders. Like I'm a leader killer, man. I'm an assassin of leaders. Like my leader, I always pick up leaders when I go to the flesh up.
SPEAKER_02So depending on your build, it could be it could be more or less. But like, let's say you make five changes, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it makes a good point. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh you you when you change if you made five knots on the butt section of a dry fly leader, that actually might make a difference somehow with fishes after a while. If I made five changes and cut off uh a handful of inches off of the butt section of a 30-foot long section, section of like 12-pound maxima, it does nothing to it. So I don't I don't mind losing the material there. So when I yeah, I save the material by looping with the dry fly leader.
SPEAKER_00Do you does the loop to loop ever bother you with the guides and the you know the not with dry flies, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean really when I'm fishing a longer leader, sometimes uh when you're landing a fish, that that connection comes through the guides. You know, that can be a little that can be a little sketchy, but as long as you're mindful of it, I don't I don't find it to be too terribly problematic.
SPEAKER_00But uh that's fair enough.
SPEAKER_02In a perfect world I'd have it nail-knotted, but that's just out of convenience. It's not it's not something that's a good idea.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you mentioned the what you're gonna put that leader on. So you're gonna take that off, and then I mean, like, no kidding, man. Like, so talk me through you've got a pack or a vest, and you've got what exactly do you use to wrap that leader?
SPEAKER_02It's just like uh any large empty spool that you've had leader or tippet material on that that is empty and you no longer use it, uh save a rubber band or a little like whatever the elastic thing that it comes with. And um and then you can just wrap it on that. And um for shorter rigs, I'll use the loon rigging foams. Or I use those a lot to change um shorter rigs, but for like a mono rig, uh long 30 foot of 12 pound maximum, that builds up bulk on the you know, on a spool. So you need it, it's just nicer if you have a little bit of a bigger spool for that. So like an old maxima spool, an old uh tippet spool, then as long as it's a bigger one, a little wide a little bit wider than your average tippet spool is makes your life slightly you know easier when you're so you don't have to wrap it around as many times. Yeah, but at the end of the day, whatever you have will suffice there.
SPEAKER_00So and a rubber band to keep it all tight.
SPEAKER_02So then it doesn't explode in your vest. And I say that and I lose the rubber band, and you can probably find a spool of my vest that's exploded in a mess right now. But uh that's do as I say, not as I do, right? So keep a rubber band, something to keep it nice and tight so that doesn't happen to you.
SPEAKER_00So and then you got your leader out and you tie your leader on and you're good to go. And now we're fishing. Okay. Sweet. I think that's that's good on that. Uh am I missing anything? That that's pretty much and just being good with your knots, making sure that you're able to tie those knots on. Um and if you are gonna do loop to loop there on the dry, that's that's pretty darn easy. So not much trouble there. Yep. Uh okay, that's fair. What about uh do you find I'm I'm curious about your opinion on this. Do you find that tying the clinch knot, like going back to the leader, tying the clinch knot onto the loop does damage, or you worry about the fly line in that um section there where now you're cutting into the nylon or cutting into the fly line material after you know, it might there might be some water that gets into that.
SPEAKER_02I I don't know if uh below up below like the where the weld is on the fly line, if that's really a major factor. I've heard people talk about the the core getting saturated with water and having the tip sink, but like that's not something that I worry about for that particular rig. If I have a dedicated dry fly setup, I might be a little more cautious of keeping that fly line really nice. But for my versatile setup, and kind of to your point earlier about um making switches and making those switches be easy, um, I don't worry about it because I just make it as easy on myself as possible so that I make the switch. So that's kind of my rationale there. So but the I use a pretty long leader for dry fly fishing. So even if like, you know, four inches of my tip of my fly line is sinking just a hair, um, that's not gonna affect my presentation most of the time. You know, I think it's kind of kind of a moot point depending how much slack is in your presentation. So yeah, I don't worry about it. It's definitely definitely a thought, and definitely happens. Um but uh I just don't worry about it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Sounds good. Thanks for sticking with me on that little I don't know, that little section. I just wanted to get real specific on that. Uh because like I said, I think people overestimate the difficulty of it, and I want I wanted to I want to talk about like every little aspect of it because it's really not that hard if you just cut it off and tie a new thing on. If you're okay with that and you have a place to put that thing, uh then it's not it's really not that troublesome.
SPEAKER_02Sure. Yeah. No, it's it's just the the annoyance of wrapping it around the spool and then then dealing with a long piece of you know leader that you could if you drop that in the water, that would be a mess to repl to try and fix or hunt that down, and you know, but but other other than that, that the the length of it is annoying. But uh the actual the the technical aspect of the switch is quite simple.
SPEAKER_00So and do you do you have a spool then that you use when you take that uh dry fly leader off and you have it's the same setup, a spool rubber band?
SPEAKER_02That's short enough. I'll use that loon rigged foam, and you could even keep a fly on it, wrap it around the foam, and then put the fly in the foam, and then you have a whole setup ready to rock and roll um right away without really doing anything.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So going back to our previous kind of conversation, how do I know I'm doing it good? How what's a what's a goal? Like what two minutes, three minutes? Like what what's a target for someone who's like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna get good at this and I'm gonna do it.
SPEAKER_02To make that switch from like a monorail to a dry fly setup, uh or vice versa. Yeah, a couple couple minutes, maybe a couple minutes, yeah. Two minutes. If you're in two to three minutes, that's fine. I mean, I've heard some guys say they go faster than that, and guy might want to brag, I can do it in sixty seconds, but like listen, if you're if you're if you're getting it done in less than five minutes, that's a lot faster for for the that's quite a dramatic change if you think about it. You're completely revamping uh your style. You're going, it's all you know, a lot of guys would choose to carry two rods to achieve the same thing, which I don't do that anymore. I used to play that game. I chose, I just got away from that.
SPEAKER_00I I don't like doing that, man. I just tried that too.
SPEAKER_02That's what's nice about a guide trip is you make your guide carry a rod. And we've joked around, like, you know, maybe maybe the market for guides is is one person, but like, what about the rod caddy? What about the guy who you pay instead of the half-day guide rate? Maybe you just pay him, you know, 50 bucks to follow you around and carry your rods, and he's like, and you're like, you know, it's just like uh you're eyeing up the green and you're like, oh what a five iron, and instead, like you're eyeing up the spot and your caddy's like, oh yeah, three weight here, three weight.
SPEAKER_00So that is funny, man. So we talked about it.
SPEAKER_02I think that's uh a valid uh career path for the aspiring guide would be the rod caddy. You're not guiding, hold the rods, hand on the right one, right?
SPEAKER_00So yeah, or maybe that's like the uh the lead-in job. You go to the fly shop and they're like, okay, you're we're not gonna trust you to guide yet, but you can be a a rod caddy for us. Yep. Yeah, okay. All right, I want to get into night fly fishing. We've been talking for almost an hour now, but is there anything else about dry fly fishing in the spring in Pennsylvania that we could talk about that you think is important that we're that we're not talking about, maybe with like presentation?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would think the this the simplest tip and um it would be that make your presentations with enough slack. That's the main thing um that's gonna give you a good drift. And if you, you know, people talk about uh like the ideal cast, like a lot of people think about like, oh, did I did my leader layout straight? Um if you are really uh presenting dry flies well, um, you want there to be some S turns and some wiggles in your leader, and if it lands in a pile, that's probably a good thing for the for the dry fly presentation because nothing is then gonna affect your drift, it's not gonna pull on you. And uh that's gonna be the the ticket between uh a decent drift and an excellent drift is having some slack built into your presentation. So um landing your leader in a pile is actually a good thing.
SPEAKER_00Can you talk a little bit about uh the best way to do that or techniques for people that are not super familiar with the pile cast?
SPEAKER_02So yeah, so there's there's some casts that you can do to achieve that. There's also some leader setups you can do to achieve that.
SPEAKER_01Let's do it.
SPEAKER_02With your leader, you could use like a George Harvey style dry fly leader, which is basically um it ends up being about a 14-foot leader, um, and it has a lot of tipping. So when you when your cast lays out straight and it kind of straightens out, it will kind of the the energy will kind of terminate and the tippet section won't I mean you can make it lay out straight, but like a normal powered cast, it'll kind of just fall on a pile. Because there's just not an there's just so much tippet out there that it's like the energy transfer, just if unless you overpower the cast, it just tends to ball up. And that can be kind of you can design the leader like that intentionally.
SPEAKER_00Which is just more tippet, just put more tippet out there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so you can and that could be like uh a poor man's version of that would be take your nine foot five weight and add too much tippet to it. Um, you could achieve like um I wouldn't be as good as a George Harvey like leader. You can look up there's formulas for that on probably a hundred places online. You can Google that. Um, some of our shops have hand-tied ones that you can buy, like our our state college TCO shop has some hand-tied ones you could buy in there, but um, yeah, you can find that leader formula, it'll perform a little better, but like the poor man's version of that would be like lengthen your leader by adding too much tippet, and then you'll have a similar effect. Um, that's like one thing you can do. Um, from the casting side of things, um you can kind of uh I would describe it like to do a pile, true pile cast, aim your cast a little bit up. So like imagine the the water is a plane and you could cast in line with that plane of water. And typically I'd want to like let my you know cast lay kind of right above the water and fall straight down. Try and cast it up, like up towards the trees a little bit more, and then have the fly line hit first, and then everything kind of piles down behind it. Podcast probably isn't the best way to teach or describe the pile cast, but you're basically casting with an upward trajectory so that intentionally when it falls down, it kind of falls down in a pile. So that's the simplest way there.
SPEAKER_00Ah, that's a good explanation. Yeah, and it's tough when you can't show people and you're just describing it, but I think you described it pretty well. You mentioned trees, and the last thing I want to talk about before we go to the the nightfly fishing is kind of with the dry fly fishing and the casting, since we're on the topic, are the things that you think about when you do switch over to the dry fly fishing with your back cast or because my experience with fishing in Pennsylvania is limited, uh very limited. Uh but when I was out there, I did get to fish in March and I did get to fish to blueing olives, and it was really cool. But um man, it's there's a lot of like trees and brush, and there was not a lot of places where I was fishing where I didn't have that uh problem. So I had to be you know, the I the way I looked at it was like I'm just gonna be out in the river more and then I'm gonna angle, I'm gonna be casting more at angles to avoid kind of my back cast where it's gonna be a problem. But is there other things that you think about or like just fishing in Pennsylvania, fishing dry flies, that seems to be a in my brain, amateur concern, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's definitely something that would be an adjustment if you're used to fishing the rivers that you uh frequent out there just out of the the the difference in vegetation. Um the kind of the way things grow here and the way it's so up close to the bank sometimes. Um so the the easy thing to think about is like um the the direction of your back cast uh can always follow the the direction of the water behind you. There's always some opening. So even on like the smallest, like most choked-out brook trout streams that we have, um, if you can get your line into the water and direct the back cast directly downstream, and sometimes it's not as behind you as you would like it to be. Sometimes behind the downstream is not like due behind you. It's like a little bit off from behind you to the left or right. Uh, but directing that cast right downstream, as long as you don't have stuff crawling out and over the creek, there's always some type of window there. Um, and then I've always talked about like in terms of like you know casting skill, um, the accuracy of your backcast when you have these um obstacles to deal with is just as important as the accuracy of your where your fly lands. So like having accuracy in the backcast. Like people talk about landing your fly on a hula hoop uh target in front of you, but like could you cast your back cast loop through a certain size window behind you in any direction? Maybe that's a little bit higher, a little bit lower, a little bit more left or right, depending on your situation. That's just another way you can have casting skills. That's just like add all know the skills necessary to achieve the thing that you're trying to do. Um, and I think uh the the accuracy you cast is a two-part thing a lot of the times, and it goes both ways, and then from there, I mean you got your role cast and stuff. But I mean a skilled caster can kind of direct that bad cast into tight windows behind you, which is something that we you know a lot of people have gotten good at, you know, in our neck of the woods for you know reasons that you talk about.
SPEAKER_00So out of necessity. Okay. Sounds good. Are you ready to move on to night fishing?
SPEAKER_02Definitely, yeah. Let's do it.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories, and artwork, check out my blog, an online gallery at WadeOutThere.com. If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey, please subscribe and share. Until next time, Wade Out There.