WOT 234: Humility and the Under-Appreciated Elements of Fly Design with Patrick Kilby

In this episode we WadeOutThere with Patrick Kilby, from Western Washington.  Patrick’s love of fishing started in Eastern Washington, fishing bobbers with his grandfather.  A photo of a rising trout in a magazine inspired a passion for fly fishing that soon had Patrick tying flies and driving from stream to stream as a teenager.  

After an initial career path in law enforcement didn’t feel like the right fit, he knew that he wanted to try to make a living in the fishing industry.  Patrick began by building fly rods himself, then for an accomplished custom rod builder. 

He became a fly shop manager in Oregon, and finally landed as a fly designer at Rio Flies.  We discuss humility in fly fishing and the under appreciated elements of fly design.

Learn More:

Instagram: @buzz.bean.and.rod
Farbank.com/collections/rio-flies

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

In this episode, we wait out there with Patrick Kilby from Western Washington. Patrick's love of fishing started in eastern Washington, fishing bobbers with his grandfather. A photo of a rising trout in a magazine inspired a passion for fly fishing that soon had Patrick tying flies and driving from stream to stream as a teenager. After an initial career path in law enforcement didn't feel like the right fit, he knew that he wanted to try to make a living in the fishing industry. Patrick began by building fly rods himself and then for an accomplished custom rod builder. He became a fly shop manager in Oregon and finally landed as a fly designer at Rio Flies. We discuss humility in fly fishing and the underappreciated elements of fly design. Welcome to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Semchuk. At Wade Out There, we believe fly fishing is special, but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practiced. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There. Welcome, Patrick. Thanks for being on the Wade Out There podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Thanks for having me, Jason.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Yeah, I'm super excited to talk to you. I'm from Washington as well, and I know we're going to talk a lot about fishing out there and some of the different collection of waters that you fish, as well as the fly tying that you do. Um so I'm really pumped to talk to you, man. And I just I love the the information that you're putting out. I I just we talked before the show, and it's obvious to me how thoughtful you are and how important teaching is as well in fly fishing.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Yeah, I definitely have tried to use that page to one, it's just an outlet for me more than anything to get I you know things I've worked on out there and share it with others, but there's usually some sort of story that goes behind it to explain the why of like why I did this fly or why I fish it this way or something like that. And so I'm glad that somebody noticed that uh there's some educational attempts in there.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

No, man, it's good. It's a good new social media story, folks. I it is like I go I went there and I was like, all right, this is good. And uh and actually a lot of that stuff that we're gonna talk about today, some of the lessons learned and stuff they were talking about. And stories. So this is a little non-typical. Usually I talk about how'd you get started in fly fishing, but I noticed a potential story. I'm gonna leave it a potential story for now, but of you uh out with a friend on Hood Canal in a canoe fishing, and I said I'm from Washington, as my audience knows too, and I know Hood Canal, and I know that I I don't know that I'd be out on a canoe in Hood Canal. Like, I don't know how far out you were or what what was going on there, but when I read that, I thought first I was like, Well, this is awesome! Like, this guy's gonna be great to talk to because he's doing this, like first of all, super fishy. Secondly, this is gonna be good stories. Uh, can you start us off with that story, man? Hood Canal fishing in a canoe.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yeah, I uh I'd only been in Hood Canal once or twice uh in a boat, and it was always a power boat, you know, like um like most sane people, right? Totally. Um and uh and then we did do a kayak day with um I think Gig Harbor fly shop one day, and and that was that was sketchy to me. I was a little nervous at times in that. Um, and then it m my friend Jesse reached out and uh he's like, Hey, I have access to this property, and let's take your canoe and let's go put it in and we'll you know fish for coho. And I just like, are you out of your mind? Like, I you know, I'm like with you. I'm like, why would we put our canoe in Hood Canal? Right. But you know, I was like, we're gonna be pretty close to shore, so yeah, let's give it a try. Should be good. Yeah. So we parked and loaded it in. Um and uh and we just we stayed along the shore and we kind of we didn't ever anchor or anything, we would just take turns casting and and we we hooked some go. It was super fun. Um and uh but the tide was coming in, and there was this channel that we ended up fishing and catching cutthroat out of. And then we took the canoe back into this back bay that kept flooding as the tide came in. Um and we tried to go as far back up in this bay as we could. Finally, kind of were starting to get stuck, so we turned around and came back out. And by now the bay was fully flooded. And so we were like, well, instead of having to go back and trace our route back around to the truck, we could now just cut straight across what was a field a little bit ago, is now flooded with water. So we just started cutting across the field. Um, and then as we got closer, we realized it was such a big tide that his truck was now in water, like up to the rims in water, and we didn't know the water even could get that high. So we paddled straight to the truck and had to load the boat while standing in water ourselves. So um, yeah, that was uh one of those kind of unforgettable moments of uh like we got lucky, I think, from that there was no damage to his truck, and we had parked in a high enough spot that it wasn't uh wasn't bad.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Well, two things on that. First of all, how was the fishing? I mean, that's the was it was it worth it? It was a good fishing.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Um yeah, I I think it was worth it. It was fun, it was a little stormy out. Um nobody was injured, nothing, nothing was broken. So I mean no harm, no fail. So yeah, it was uh it's worth it. Made for a good story, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:23

That's right. That's what I wanted to tell. And yeah, the I used to go crabbing with my family and my dad in the canal, and the tides are what I remember as being like I didn't realize it until I started talking to more people about how aggressive the Puget Sound is with the the tides are so I don't know, aggressive is the right word, but it just seems so uh high and low and fast. And yeah, I remember there being like danger about that, you know, like kind of like don't be be paying attention when you're playing in the water out here, kind of thing, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Definitely a quick way to lose a crab pot if you're not paying attention.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah. Um so how did you end up in Washington? Uh we talked before the show as well. I know you're you're from the area. Uh have you always been fly fishing out there? And can you talk a little bit about uh just your path to fly fishing and how you ended up now with Rio and um your journey into professional fly fishermen?

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yeah, I was born in Southern Oregon, but I basically from a very young age. We I grew up in Vancouver, Washington, where my family was. Um I started fishing just at a very young age with you know, bobber and worm with my grandpa um in eastern Washington at their house, and just couldn't get enough of it. I loved it so much and spending time with my grandpa and and you know, seeing that bobber go underwater, and you never knew what it was gonna be catfish, bluegill, bass. Um, and uh it was just so much fun. And I I saw a photo of a trout sipping a fly off the surface. Um, it was like in an outdoor life magazine, like a fifth grade classroom assignment where we had all these magazines, we were cutting things out to make collages, and I just came across that photo, and I remember tearing it out and taking it home with me. I was just like couldn't get enough of that photo. Um, there was something about it that spoke to me, and that I can honestly say it was the first trigger to be like, I think fly fishing is something that I would like to do from the photograph. From that photo, and there wasn't even a fly in the picture, it was just like the trout nose and the dimple. Like that was all it was, and and uh so uh I got to go to I mean, I had like probably the cheapest fly rod on the planet. I think we got it at Kmart. It was like a a fiberglass $18 rod, um, just terrible. And I had a fluger medalist, which was actually probably more expensive than the rod. I think it was like a a $25 or $35 reel, right? And uh, I don't even know what line I had on it, but nothing about any of this was nice, yeah. Um, and I remember practicing casting in our cul-de-sac and on the concrete and pavement and just trashing my fly line and thinking it was fun to make the the whip cracking sound and you know, trashing my leader and not knowing anything, right? Just like trying to figure it out. And yeah, I didn't have anyone teaching me yet. I just was like doing this by myself trying to learn. And uh I got to go on a trip to North Idaho to some relatives' house, and they were into fly tying. And so they taught me during the day, they taught me how to tie a bugger, like a woolly bugger, and a renegade. And um when their dad came home from work, he loaded us up and took us out in their canoe to a nearby lake, and I caught perch that night on flies I had tied that day. And I'm like, well, this is awesome. I mean, I definitely know that fly fishing is something I'm interested in. So and fly tying, it sounds like well now like that got added in, right? So I came home and was like started getting some fly tying materials, and my grandpa had made me this little wood case that had drawers in it that I could put my fly tying stuff in. Um, and so yeah, I they just went hand in hand for me. Um I it was one of those where like I used it, you know, like all my gear fishing was still happening for bass, for steelhead, for salmon, um, you know, shad fishing in the Columbia, whatever I was doing with gear, I was still doing, and I kind of reserved fly fishing for trout, and that was pretty much it. Maybe the occasional bluegill or something, but mostly trout, and only in certain settings. So it was like over time, I I remember like the first time I said I'm only gonna take my fly rod to steelhead fish. Like I always would take both.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

So you're all in, you're pot committed, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Yeah, so at that point, I'm like, I left the spinning rod at home, and I just took the fly rod and forced myself into that. Um, so yeah, I just I think I you know, I grew up just loving fishing, and and once I got my driver's license, I could just go. And I think that was a a nice feature about my childhood was that I had that freedom, you know, I wasn't doing things that were making my parents question my honesty about where I was going and what I was doing and who I was with. So they always trusted that, you know, yeah if I said I'm going to this river to fish, like that's what I was doing. And so uh I had a lot of freedom to just go and fish all these different places around me, spend time out there learning. And um, but yeah, I mean I once I got my my career choice was gonna be law enforcement, and so I why law enforcement similarly, like I my so my dad was a probation and parole officer for the state of Washington, and so I never wanted to be on that side of law enforcement. I the the kind of the rehab side, I wanted to send clients his way. Um and uh and so I always wanted to be on the front edge. And um one of our neighbors and friends, family friends, was a state trooper. Um and I just was enamored with law enforcement. So um from a young age, that was interesting to me. I became a reserved deputy sheriff and I did that for 13 years. I got my degree in criminal justice, um, but I could just never get, you know, I'd take tests, and I was never high enough on the test to like get in a position where I could go further. And I just felt like I kept trying and not getting it, and I was like, I gotta find something else to do. I'm not gonna make money not doing this, so I gotta figure it out. Um so I decided to pursue fly fishing at that point, or no, or just yeah, fly fishing or fishing. I wanted to get see if I could work in that.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

What was that decision like? I mean, where were you as a fly fisher at that point, and what was the path that you saw forward?

SPEAKER_00 13:56

I didn't quite know yet. I um I mean I was I wasn't a super accomplished fly angler yet. I was I had been spending a lot of time on the dischutes when I could. Okay and doing I was starting to do float trips with my family and friends. So I just kept learning every time I'd go out there.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Um so I wasn't very far along in my fly fishing um knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

This is what's so fascinating to me because I mean I just think that's cool for someone to be like, all right, I'm gonna what else do I like here? Maybe not be maybe not being a sheriff isn't for me. What else is it? I like to fish.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Yeah, it wasn't that was about as far as the extent of thinking it through, right? Yeah, that's good. So I had a I was making some custom rods at the time. I kind of got into rod building and and I had a full setup that I was starting to think like maybe I'll make rods for other people. And I I tried to take a few orders and then somebody like I built it for them and then they didn't buy it. And I was like, well, that sucks. Like, what am I gonna do with this? Right. Like I I didn't even think that that could be a possibility. So, you know, I just ate the cost on that and didn't like it at all. So um at that point, I started looking to see like what else is around me, who's doing custom rod building, that I could just go work for them. Right. And I I saw Kerry Birkheimer was in Washugal, and I went to Kerry and just kind of was a pest, I think. I mean, I honestly showed up a lot, I talked with him a lot, and essentially just kept kind of saying, Well, let me why don't you let me work here? Right. And um, and eventually he let me. And you know, Kerry was very particular. I mean, he was a you know high-end custom rod builder and very well respected for his product. And he took a lot of pride in knowing that he was the only person that ever put the final coating on the rods. And and one of my goals that I strived for, strove for, whatever the how you say it, um, was to become good enough where he trusted me to do that for him. And I finally got there. Like I remember getting that torch handed off where he he said, Yes, I would I'm I trust that you can coat these rods to my standards. Um so that was that was huge. I really appreciated that. Um and I and I worked hard at trying to get that dialed in, like the the attention to detail, being able to really slow down and do it well. Um and uh and so yeah, I I worked for him for two years and uh and then he introduced me to uh one of his customers, but who was also a fly shop owner um down in Ashland, Oregon. Um and so I went down there and interviewed and so Ken Morrish, who a lot of people know, he you know with Flywater Travel, and he he was the manager of this fly shop beforehand, but he was just leaving the fly shop to go start flywater travel. So this manager position was open, and then I ended up getting that job. So I moved to Ashland, Oregon, and was this fly shop manager for a few years and um, you know, got to see the retail side of it and what ordering looked like and relationships with my customers and learning new fisheries to um be able to interact with my customers, I'll say. Because when I worked for Carrie, I I got introduced to skating flies for Steelhead, like dry flies for Steelhead. And and and so when I moved to Southern Oregon, that was fresh in my head, and I remember talking to customers who they did a ton of indicator fishing on the rogue, and I was like kind of trying my hand at being snobby, I guess, right? Like I was like, oh brother, like you're just indicator fishing, like why don't you try swinging a fly, right? And and I remember just almost trying it once, that that attitude, and could kind of see and read my customer, like, oh, this is not going well, right? And I and I I was able to pause and reflect on that enough to say, what am I doing, right? Like, if I treat anybody this way, especially if I'm supposed to be like selling them product and and interacting with them and teaching people, I can't be this narrow on my focus, right? And so I backed off all of that and I went and taught myself how to indicator fish for steelhead so that I could become well versed in it, so that I could now carry on a conversation with them about it. Yes, and help sell product that I think would work for it, or teach people how to use it. Um and that was a big shift in how you know I I wasn't that I didn't become that snobby fly shop person that we hear about, right, or we know about, um and we've all faced. Um and so that I'm glad that I was able to do that. Um well, me too, man.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

I mean uh uh there's a lot of stuff in there. I want to first of all, I think the last thing you mentioned about learning the other technique speaks to the dedication to the craft of teaching. And I want to talk a little bit more about teaching, but one of the things that I remember that I learned as an instructor in uh the A10 was you have to learn other people's techniques. Like you have to, you can't just be able to show them your the way you do it because they might not understand it or get it or like it. And if you need them to get the end result, or if you want them to be successful, you have to um you have to be able to show them other things. And and at least be competent in the other things as well, so you can say, yeah, this is why I don't like that, or this is why this doesn't work as well, or this is why you should try this. Because and then you have some credibility too, right? It's not just ah that's not that's not good. Well, have you ever tried it, Patrick? You know? Like um so I think that that's that's really cool. Uh and then the the trying your hand at being snotty, there's a moment when you were talking when I thought, why don't more people like have that moment of reflection? You know, like what because to be quite honest, I don't see a lot of that these days in fly fish. It's not like they're all over the place and there's all these like snotty, snobby kind of fly fish. I just it's not my experience. A little bit more of my experience 25 years ago when I was just starting out, but not really these days. But there are today, I still see it. I still see it out there. I'm wondering why do you think that is? And we don't have to soapbox it too much. I'm just curious if you think, you know, why why did that click for you, maybe is a better way to ask that.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

I uh I don't know why it clicked for me necessarily. I maybe I have a couple thoughts, but I do think on to you, the first point is like I think that if anyone is put in a position Of knowledge, or like you're kind of up on a pedestal in a way where, you know, so you're in a fly shop, you're you're managing the fly shop, or you're a pretty knowledgeable fly shop person, and you have customers coming in and asking you all these questions, you're immediately in this position of like, you know, this sounds rude, but like I'm better than you, right? Like that kind of position is easily felt or seen, I think. And it's you have to that's why you have to be careful with it, because if you start to think that way, in most cases you're not better than them, right? We're all human, we're all people that just want to learn something or or try something and and you don't want to be talked down to. So I think but I think that's how it happens, right? It's just easy to be like, yeah, I'm the expert, you're coming to me, and um, and then it just therefore I must have something special that you need, right? Yeah, yeah, or maybe even fake it, right? Like I'm I gotta look the part, I gotta be the part, so I'm just gonna act like I know everything for you. Yeah, that's a good point. Um But I think you know, I look at like so going back to some of my my range days in law enforcement, like I had never handled a sidearm in my life. And I went into that just green as could be. So I took every word they told me like, I'm gonna follow this. If you're teaching me what to do to be safe and to be accurate or whatever, I'm going to do what you tell me to do. And I was watching people around me who felt like they knew already. And I started out shooting them, and um, and it was just that, like, okay, they they brought bad habits into this that they didn't know they had, or that they weren't willing to listen because of pride or whatever else was in in their way. And trust me, I have my own pride issues in their other areas, but um, but what you know, I think that was a good lesson for me to see that distinction. Yeah. Uh and so being a good listener paid off, and so that was like a positive reward of like, I learned to be a good listener in that scenario, and so can I apply that going forward? And um anyway, I think that's where it started to help me.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Yeah, I think uh we talked about this before the show. Uh, it doesn't seem challenging for you to be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes um to be able to teach, which I think is an important way to approach teaching and instructing.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Yeah, I think I'm better at that with fly fishing than other areas of my life because, you know, I you can ask my wife, I'm not always great with empathy. Uh, and I think that's just my own shortcomings in emotional development growing up or whatever, and so it's still something I work on. Um, but with fly fishing, I've had so many experiences that I do feel like I can share. And because I came from such a humble start, yeah, it's very easy for me to recognize like, hey, you don't need the thousand dollar rod to do this, you don't need this. You just like let's get you out there, let's get you started, and let's try to set you up for success and have a good time. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

And humility builds credibility. If you're if you're able to tell someone the mistakes that you made, then my experience has been they're more likely to ask you questions. They are more likely to listen to the answers you give because you are like me and people want to be around people like them, right? And the further you are from that, the harder that relationship becomes. Um harder it is, I think, my my opinion, for that relationship to kind of really foster. But these are just my opinions. These are just my opinions. Yeah, I just uh uh we talked about the show, we talked about um you know, I like to talk about people's home waters and the the waters that they fish most often or they're most special to them. And I think from talking with you and looking at where you're fishing and where you're at and the types of adventures that you like to have, it's more of a collection of waters really that you're um kind of pursuing uh throughout your fly fishing. I thought I'd ask you some questions you know about uh about that. And to be quite honest, I'm probably just fishing for stories here. I just want to hear some awesome stories from Pancho. Um but you know, you're out in Washington, Western Washington. Is there um is there a story that you could tell me of a fish that really sticks with you, stands out? Or maybe even better, a fish that got away that you learned something in particular from, kind of on the thread of humility, maybe we could learn something from?

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Boy, I'll have to think about the second part of that, but I think uh yeah, the collection of water is just uh it's it's uh I just I fished wherever I thought I could. Um and and so anywhere around southwest Washington where I grew up, uh eventually going into Oregon and um and when I was in in school in Pullman, I would go fish like the Grand Ron, or I'd go up to North Idaho and trout fish or bass fish. So I just fished where I was or where I could, and all of them have just memories associated with either just the experience of being out there by yourself at times, yeah, um, and what that offered versus going with friends or family, and it I think so. One of the maybe the humbling times for me wasn't even about a fish, it was just about again, it was kind of my attitude, I think, is I we were on a two-day float on the Deschutes, we were gonna camp midway down, and it was tail end of the stonefly, you know, salmon fly patch that would go on. And I had done this trip every year, it was kind of an annual trip for us. But I was at a point in my life where I was really, really high strung, like just stressed to the max, feeling couldn't hold still. How old are you? Late 20s, I'm guessing, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Because you seem like one of the chillest people that I have had on the show right now. Right now talking, sitting with you. So Yeah, I think this is interesting to me.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

Yeah, I definitely I do feel like I'm a pretty relaxed person it in a lot of ways, but um but I think just like your mind can race, and if you live in your head as much as I was doing at the time, and you don't have that outlet, you just you go crazy, right? And you're just like you can't settle down, you can't focus on anything around you, the people around you, whatever, for very long. Um so here I have some like very dear people close to me on a what should be just our great annual float, and um it was like I was so anxious on that float the first day that I couldn't slow down to enjoy anything, and I couldn't enjoy them or the fishing, and it was all about can I catch a fish or not? And are they catching fish? Like what are we doing? And and I was just I think I was I knew I was miserable, and I fear I was making them miserable at times too. Um and it hit me that night in camp that what how I was feeling about it and kind of behaving and could see it for the first time, and I I remember going to them either that night or the next morning. I think it was that night I I just kind of spoke up in camp and just apologized to all of them and said, Tomorrow I will be different. Like, I will not do this again tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Um, and you could feel them feeling the tension.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

I don't know if I could feel it through them as much as I just needed to get it out.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Like I was feeling horrible about my behavior and um I hate that feeling when you know you're just like, dude, I need I have I have really effed up here, man. Yeah, you know, like I gotta I'm sorry, guys, you know.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yeah, yeah. So I I was able to take it down a notch and focus on them and the and just enjoying it, and um and but I had regret, right? Like that I how many times have I done this? And um you know reflecting now, um, you know, whatever that was, some half a lifetime ago or whatever it was. Um I mean, I've since been like diagnosed with social anxiety and and take medicine for that now. And so it's like really, oh that was uh that was probably part of that, right? Like I was just I'm an anxious person, and um and that wasn't shocking as much as I look back on it now, as I didn't understand it then. And uh and so yeah, like I didn't have the coping mechanism mechanisms and you know, along those lines, I think fly fishing a lot of times, as I also reflect back in my life, is that fly fishing often was an escape, right? It was a way I used to think of it like it's beautiful when I'm out here because I'm not thinking about my problems at home, I'm not thinking about my problems at work, or wherever I had problems or issues or stress, but I wasn't thinking of any of that typically when I'd go fish. And and then but they didn't they didn't fix my problems, right? It was just an escape.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

So do you think that this experience because it sounds like uh you've found fly fishing, and maybe this is a good time to jump into kind of the mental health aspect of fly fishing in general, but definitely for in your experience with anxiety. Uh do you feel like that experience uh was unique in that that was a transition moving forward? Because you just told me that fly fishing was like an escape and you're not thinking about it. So if you're if you're if you're inside your own head while you're fishing, which is what you're describing, then you're not really escaping. So it was that like a transition in your fly fishing kind of experience?

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Yeah, I mean I Does that make sense? I'm trying to like I'd still be in my head when I was fishing, but I was focused on the fishing things in my head. So it was a different kind of stress that you're feeling. Yeah, totally. And you know, to go back, like when you're a kid, and maybe even as an adult, right? Like you go fish, and the question you get when you come home is like, Did you catch anything? Was never like, did you have fun? Uh you know, that those type of questions. It was always like, How'd you do?

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Oh, yeah. They feed that feeling of I better catch a fish.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Right. And so when you live with that, and then you know, you become somebody who is an expert in showing air quotes to you right now, but um the uh you know, you feel like you gotta produce even more, and and uh and so you put pressure on yourself and and that just builds. But that day, that night was a transition day for me in my fly fishing journey, um, because I was able to step away from that and say, if I am not having fun, then why am I doing this? If I am not enjoying this or trying to be help the people around me also enjoy this, uh, why am I doing this? And so that that shifted, and and I can think of trips after that where we would go, and I was like, all about making the best lunches possible, right? Like having the best sandwich meat and the best of this on the boat, and like let's if the fishing blows, we're gonna have the best lunch on the river. Let's talk about the columnar basalt that we're gonna see as we float down the river, and let's look for wildlife, and let's you know So this is ways for you to find other things to enjoy about it so it doesn't have to be about it, or is this totally this is because you could get wrapped around the axle in those things too. Like, but I mean it it's now you've expanded your view of why you're out there, and you know, that expression trout don't live in ugly places is is uh a mantra in that in a way it's like if you can go out and at least enjoy nature and enjoy each other and enjoy uh you know some other things along with the fishing, then you've won. Yeah, and and uh and so I yeah, I mean I can you know I I feel bad thinking about this now because I I I've done that spun-up anxiety thing a few times, and I've done it with my kids, and I've done it with my wife and kids, and and each one of those were so frustrating to me how I behaved that I try never to replicate those.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Um, you know, making my kids cry on a golf course because I was so worked up about like them holding up the people behind me. Uh, and I'm like, okay, stop. I gotta stop being this way, right? Like, yeah, let's just enjoy ourselves out here on the golf course.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

And and so I mean, I I I don't mean to ask you so many questions about this, or or maybe I do, but like I have a very similar I have a very similar like way of being that was bred into me in a fighter squadron, right? And I don't have any regrets and I don't but but I'm very used to operating in a very certain way with a very certain type of people at a very certain speed, right? And I see myself doing this where I will take that speed and that mindset into my family and my kids, and it is so frustrating, and I am I'm so regretful so many times. Uh I'm much better at it now. I feel like maybe my wife would disagree, but like uh meditation has helped, believe it or not. But uh I I just I'm kindred spirit, dude. I I'm I'm I know that feeling, that's why I'm like, dude, I'm just like connecting with you on this because it's like it's so frustrating to have that feeling you'd be like, come on, man. Yeah, like what are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Why are you doing this, buddy? Yeah, and you can't see it while it's happening necessarily, and it's kind of like you gotta get to those painful moments where you do create tears in someone else or you push somebody else away a bit, and then you just go, Oh man, like what have I done? And yeah, um, hopefully you can bring it back. But but yeah, I mean it it's it's a lifelong journey for me on on some of those aspects, but yeah, fly fishing is less these days about an escape, and it's just more about you know, I do it for work, so I get to go solve problems and test things, and I do it for um to spend time with friends, and um, once in a while I still go by myself because I like being able to just nerd out on an aspect and try things and not have to hold anybody up and make people sit through me changing flies 20 times and um and I don't want to be bothered by that. I want to just have that freedom to mess with it until I get what I want out of it. And so that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

Well, fly fishing, a lot of people treat fly fishing like meditation, you know? And um, I don't know if I think of it like that. I think of it more as I like it not so much for the escapism, but I like the focus. I like the feeling of this is what I'm you know, my brain has to be here. Um the byproduct is yeah, I'm I'm not thinking about other things, but I don't necessarily try to escape things. I'm just trying, I I like that feeling of being present. Um But I do think I can't believe I'm saying this, but I I do think meditation has really helped me be able to like observe myself, observe my emotions more, because I think that's what you're kind of you're forced to do that when you're meditating. You're kind of like, why are you like thinking about that and all these things coming into your brain? And uh it's helped me with that. I don't know why I'm bringing that. I'm not giving you advice. I'm just I'm not doing that. No way. I'm just saying, like, for me, that's it's been something that uh I think about and fly fishing. I'm definitely in a better mood when I've been fishing or out in the woods and hunting, and just being outside, I think, is is helpful for me too.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Yeah, I usually can come back if I if I have it to look forward to, if I know a trip is scheduled and it's looking like the weather's gonna be good or whatever, like I can have that excitement to lead up to it. And then I usually come back feeling rather fulfilled.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

And um, and then yeah, you're just more pleasant to be around because you don't have that angst in you.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Yeah, and you enjoy yourself more too. Let's put a pin in the work aspect of it, the solving problems that you mentioned and the testing things. The other thing I really wanted to talk to you about today, Patrick, is your fly tying. And I started off noticing how much attention to detail you put into the size of a fly in the in respect to wow, this guy is showing me through that uh Instagram thing we were talking about, showing me the difference between this fly that is much bigger and this fly that is much smaller, and it's both a size 10 hook. And then I was like, well, I'm gonna ask him about size, shape, color, you know, the the big ones on a fly design or fly kind of thing, and then and then you are keying me into, well, there's other things that I think a lot about, and I wonder, let's start with those other things, I think. Maybe not the size profile color that most people are familiar with, but can you list or describe or you know, talk to the importance of some of the other parts of a fly that are important? And you mentioned texture and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

Yeah. Um, I mean, size shape, color are definitely the big three. And um, you know, that just to hit on it, that post was about a size 10 chubby Chernobyl, which has foam that extends over the front of the eye and the rear of the hook. So it's um it's a bigger profiled fly on you know, a size 10 hook, then the shank is a little bit longer on that hook. Whereas the skater tot is a size 10 hook, but it's on a shorter shank hook and um has some foam that extends over the front and um and a little bit off the back too, but it's just a much smaller presented fly, um, but hook gate being the the same, right? And so um, but yeah, I mean, beyond size shape color, you have texture, which you just mentioned, you there's weight that you can take into consideration. There's what I would call absorbency, meaning like how much water does this absorb or not, and um and then quality, so the quality of the materials that go into it, quality of the hook, um, quality of the tie, you know. Um so I think those are all mostly I would say physical properties that you can see them, you can feel them, you can um they and in most cases you can measure them. And and so um it's kind of like the the SMART goal, right? The M and SMART goal is measurable, and so if you can measure something, you can improve something is the idea. So um so anyway, you know, you can look at I look at it more of along the lines of like if I measure this bug that I'm trying to replicate and it's you know, I don't know, 37 millimeters long, you know, what does my fly look like at 37 millimeters? Millimeters. Does it does it feel good? Does it look okay? Um, I think in most What would make it feel good?

SPEAKER_01 46:23

Uh you know what I mean? Like, what's the feeling that you're looking for? I'm sorry to interrupt. You were No, it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

It's like I think my style of tying is what I would just call semi-realistic. So I like more realistic bugs, but not on the the rad artsy side that doesn't fish well. I like it to really be functional and fish, but still look rather like the real thing. Um and and so if it if it's like, yeah, like that, that looks pretty realistic, like that's the good feeling I get from it. Okay. Um, and you know, you've heard people say like squint and like look at it, and like does it give off the vibe of what you're trying to mimic? Um, and if it does, that kind of captures your size, shape, color, right? Okay. And and then as you focus on it, then you get into your texture and and your um the highlights of the colors, and the that's your kind of your quality of it, right? So um I yeah, I think the thing that I've noticed the most is like you can get the body of a fly pretty pretty dialed and have it look really realistic. And then if you tie realistic legs to really be the size that they are supposed to be, they end up very tiny compared to what most flies have on them. And you know, you look at the legs on like the rubber leg stone, yeah, those type of things, they're just they're so huge, right? Like totally out there, big, big legs, big antenna, and you lay that next to a real bug, and it is not realistic in that way. But it fishes good, but it fishes great, and why is that, right? Like that's the big question, and there's that impressionistic aspect of it. Um, but just the flailing of it and the wiggly aspects of it, I think, are what are attractive, right? And so it's been I think that's a challenge for me to get over where I'm like, I want this thing to look more real than that, so I end up putting shorter legs on it or yeah, whatever. And in some cases it totally works out, and in others, I force myself to put longer legs on it. Because one, I know I can always trim them if I don't like it when I'm on the water, but if it's fishing fine, then I'm like whatever, it's you know, I can get over it. But um that's just my own hang up with it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

Oh no, I mean that's a perfectly logical dilemma for a professional fly tire to be in, in my in my opinion. This kind of balance between realism and how does it fish. And I would I would uh almost like the perfect thing would be like, look, I made this fly and it is not artsy, but it's very it looks just like this bug, and it fishes outstanding. I mean, it is just like fishing incredible. That would be like the home run, right? That would be um but then there's flies that are just kind of like you know, they don't really, it's this they're not replicating anything really, you know, like a rainbow warrior, like what bug looks like that, right? Right. But it fishes great in some circumstances and and then it gets into the uh the style of the tire, like what are you trying to what do you like and what do you prefer and what what what kind of flies do you like to tie, you know? So I don't think that's I think that makes sense. When you describe that, I'm like, okay, yeah, I can see where that's a thing. You know? Yeah. Um I'm I'm happy that you brought this up because you mentioned absorbency, uh the quality, the weight, the texture. Those are things that I guess I don't think about a lot. Maybe the weight, I do think about weight when I'm tying um a lot more now. Certainly more than when I started. Uh the more tires I talk to, yourself included, the more I hear about the movement of the fly, if that's a thing. I don't know if that's a thing, but like what do you think about that? Or like putting materials on that will impart movement, like the the rubber legs or a ha soft hackle, or is that important to you in any way, or did what do you think people should think about with in in that regard?

SPEAKER_00 50:58

Yeah, I definitely like movement when it's proper. Um, I was telling someone just this week that outside of a dry fly, I feel like I used to use the improved clinch knot on pretty much everything. Um and uh but not on a dry fly? No, I did. Like I used it on everything, like it didn't matter what that was the knot I used. Um and over the years uh I've now shifted to where like my dry flies will mostly still use that improved clinch, but almost everything else. Uh well, I guess there's some nymphs I'll still tie it on like that, but almost everything else is a monoloop knot, like a more open knot so that the fly can can really move more.

SPEAKER_01 51:49

Ah, okay. I wasn't expecting you to say that, but that makes sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Yeah, so that that helps a lot. And so here's my best example of that. That was a very quick and hard lesson to learn. Um, I was still water fishing in BC. Yeah. Um and I was deep line, like no indicator, right? Just like full sinking line, chronomid just off the bottom, like six inches, right? Okay. And it was deep water, and we were into the fish. There was a few of us fishing in this zone, and it was just awesome, right? Like your rod sitting there static in a rod holder, and all of a sudden it just berries and a big you know, rainbows jumping out of the lake. It's so fun. Anyway, but you have to tie on your chronomid on a loop so it can dangle freely and it can wiggle, because that's how those insects behave, right? That if they're gonna swim up, they're wiggling as they're wiggling, you know, moving up. And uh and so I I had it tied on properly and I was catching fish. I broke off, broke my fly off on a fish. And out of the heat of the battle moment, I just tied another one on super fast, but out of habit, I tied the clinch knot and I pitched it right back in there. I was the exact same spot, I was on anchor, I was in the same depth, and now all of a sudden I am the one not catching fish. The people around me still catching fish, I am not, and I'm like, it's the same fly, like I didn't change the color size, nothing, right? I'm like, what changed? And then it hit me. I'm like, oh, I tied the wrong knot. And I pulled it in and I put my loop knot back on and dropped it in, and I was back into the fish, and I was like, wow, like that was like the best lesson ever. Because while I didn't want it to happen, it needed to happen for me to learn that lesson of like that knot matters. And and so um, yeah, that's my best example, I guess, of of why I started shifting more to that, because it just imparts more action to your fly. Um and but yeah, I mean for other flies that you want to move, you know, you're trying to again, if it's a general attractor type thing, like a steel-head fly, you you know, um, you just want I don't know, flies that are really stiff don't seem to get as much action as one that's got more flow and movement and and um and you know I think the weirdest thing I ever did was fish uh the Palola worm style fly for tarpon. And it's just like a stiff, you know, little red worm, and I'm thinking to myself, like, why isn't this like jiggy looking, flowy or wiggly? Like, you know, I mean you do tie it on with the loop knot, but it's just stiff as a board, in my opinion, like the way it fishes, and and then but when you watch a real palola worm swim, they have these little micro little hairs on their sides that vibrate and they just rocket through the water without any kind of undulation or wiggle. Um, they're just like a straight little board, and then you so you see that and you're like, oh, well, now it makes sense why you would not want movement out of that fly, really, right? So um anyway, that's so again you want it where you want it in the in those if you're trying to mimic an action, um, and then you don't want it when you're trying to, you know, again, like be realistic and give the fish what they're used to seeing. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:51

Let's go back to size, shape, color. What do you think is maybe underappreciated in that regard or that that people I don't know if if it's the right way to put it, like mess up the most often, but just things that you think uh people don't think about enough, like the underrated aspect of that. Um I think we're repositioning.

SPEAKER_00 56:18

This is setting us up for a good one. Uh I think you don't I think the thing that people miss a lot is they don't look at it from the fish's perspective. So meaning if you're fishing a dry fly, don't always just think about it from what you see. What does the fish see? And if you want to think of it like even not even a fly, but take an indicator, right? So uh any kind of those air-filled indicators um came in pinks and oranges and whatever, and and that's to help us see it, but what does a fish see when that's going over? You know, maybe it just looks like a shadow and they all kind of look dark, I don't know. But I tend to think of it as uh I want it to blend in for a fish, I don't want them to see it, and so I always fished a white indicator.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

Me too. All right, good.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

That white to me, if you look up at a sky, even if it's a cloudy day, it's still pretty bright. It's mostly more white from that fish's perspective, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 57:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:32

And there's also foam on the water that can be white, and so I found that I could see white just fine, and I felt like it fished better. Um, and maybe it was just a fluke, I don't know. But I I liked fishing those white indicators. So it was important to me when I look at like my juicy stone or my juicy hopper, but the juicy stone in particular, um, I had always I'd seen so many salmon flies in my life that I noticed like there's a pretty distinct kind of pinkish-orange, right? Like that, I think it's where it gets its name, that salmon-colored underside of of those bugs. And the top side is so dark and gray and brown and black, and and so uh, you know, I think people tend to either just go really bright orange or they go all gray or all black, and and it's I think that fade of like coming from a dark edge into that underside of like salmon-y colored or almost a pink color. Yeah, sometimes a pale pink color on them is one, it's tricky, and so how do you do it? Is it worth your time to do it? And and I I think it is. So um, you know, the fish are used to seeing that. And I mean, even when you have something that's like spot on, right? Like you we've been on the river where you float your fly over and an actively feeding fish and they don't eat, and then you see a real one float by and they gobble it up, and you just you do that on repeat five times in a row, and you're like, that fish knows what it wants, and it's nothing where you're throwing at it. Um, so you just gotta respect it and move on, right? And um, and so I think it's those type of things where it's just like, yeah, what what's that color from underneath from that fish's perspective? So I do a lot of like holding flies up and looking at it up against the sky. Yeah. Um, or you know, if I'm looking at real bugs, flipping it over, what does it look like underneath that thing? And so I think that is missed on on people sometimes. Um this might be the keep going. I'll keep going, sorry. Size, shape, color. I think um yeah, I don't I think just getting the size really close to what you're trying to mimic is is well, I'll maybe back up and say it's more about I think a lot of fly tires, and I've done it, right? A lot of fly tires tie a fly that they've seen someone else tie or that they know has worked, and then it's their take on it, right? Like, oh, this is this is a chubby Chernobyl, but I this is the material I had on my desk, so this is what I tied it with, so that's my take on it, or whatever, right? And that's fine. Um, but from a creator standpoint, I can't do that, and I don't want to do that. I want to take something and solve a problem, yeah. And um, and so if I'm getting an inspiration from another fly, or I'm looking at another fly and I hear someone say, I love this fly, but it lands upside down too much, or I love this fly, but my leader gets caught in the front lip of it too much, I I'm listening to that and I can go back and go, I know how to fix that. And I can tie one that doesn't do those things, or it lands correctly more often. Yeah. Um, and so when I um I see people tying just for the sake of tying or for a vanity reasons or whatever, um, you know, again, that's that's fine, it's nothing to slam on that. I I just I have to look at it differently for my work and for my own interest. Um I can't always just tie something because somebody else tied it. And um anyway, or I've done it long enough where I've done that enough in my life already, so now I'm ready to move on and try to create.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

Yeah. A couple things there. I think it's cool that you mentioned the physical aspects of casting and presenting the fly as problems worth solving. I don't I don't think about that a lot uh with certain flies, but I definitely now that you've mentioned that, I noticed that. Like, huh. And it could be like a certain type of fly, or it could just be that one fly that I tied, and maybe I didn't tie it the right way or whatever. Um so I think that's important to note, and I just wanted to hammer that home because I think that that's especially with dry flies, I think that that matters. Um and uh I want and I want to talk more about the development of the fly and how you used your creative process to problem solve. But first, I think I'm gonna ask you maybe one of the weirdest questions, probably the weirdest question I've ever asked on the show, but it just came to my mind that's how it works. But uh have you or has anybody ever like got in the water and like put like goggles on and looked at the flies like from underwater? Because you're describing you're describing like holding it up to the sky and stuff, and that makes sense, but like would it wouldn't it make sense to like be in the water? Has ever have you ever thought about that or does anybody do that, or is this just like dude, stop being weird, Jason?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:11

No, totally. It's uh it's been done. Um Gary Lafontaine Gary Lafontaine, you know, the caddis, like the sparkle pupa that that um everybody's fished, I think. But um I think he did a video on it many years ago where they had a a diver lay on their back in the river and film up, and you could watch caddis emerging and see what that looked like from the bottom of the river essentially. Um and that blew my mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

Uh yeah, it seems like that would be super cool and useful.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:46

Yeah, I never saw that. I did snorkel in high school. I'd go to the river and I would lay in the river facing downstream in shallow riffles, um, have a mask and snorkel on, and just sit there in the water and watch fish swimming around me, and I would see uh bugs crawling on the bottom. But I this was well before I was really too much into fly fishing at you know, to that level. So it was more of just like fun watching the fish. And I but I I could reflect back on that and go, man, like I wish I could have paid attention to this, this, or this while I was in there, right? And yeah, um, and then one of our sig tires here at Rio, Hogan Brown, um, he tells stories of doing similar things where he would lay in the water or swim and snorkel and watch fish behavior, watch bug behavior. So it definitely is a thing, and people have done it. Um, but I would say Gary's attempt at doing that with the videographer and the and the scuba diver stuff, like that's pretty next level.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:57

It does seem next level. I mean, you gotta really be into time flies if you're gonna to you know go to that level.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

But there's actually a series, I'm gonna I'm forgetting the name, but they did a series not that many years ago on um like bug life cycles, and they did different, they did yeah, Mayflies and Caddis and different things, and they have some really good underwater footage um on those DVDs. Um wish I could remember the name, but I've watched those and really enjoy them.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:26

Well, maybe not the weirdest question then, after all. Maybe maybe just in my brain that was weird. Um we talked we talked philosophy first, I think. And we talked fly tying. I want to get some tactics out of you before we move on. Is there anything about fly tying that we're missing that you know we if we didn't include this, we wouldn't really be getting Patrick's full philosophy on fly tying, or is there something that you really think that hey, we gotta mention this about fly tying.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:01

I think we've covered it. I mean that just you know, solve the problem. Like what do you what are you really trying to do? If if you're if your reason for tying a fly is to try to, you know, save money from buying them, you know, in some cases I get that. If your purpose is because you think this color works better than the store-bought one, great. Um, but I think the takeaway I'd leave people with is if you hear something today that gives you um confidence in what we're doing at Rio as fly tires designers, um, and it's not just me, right? It's it's my coworker, Brita. It's our SIG tires that we have signed and work with. And you know, if you if you have that trust in us, we sign people and work with people that I would say have deeper portfolios, right? Like I I say, like every one of us who ties flies, we could have a one-hit wonder, right? Like we could have a fly that rails fish, and we're kind of like, yeah, this feels good. But is that the sig tire you want on your team? And I look at it as you know, maybe that's okay, but I would rather know that if you like this fly by me, then you're probably gonna like this one and this one also, right? So if it's like your favorite restaurant, if you if you have a good sandwich at this restaurant or a good pizza or salad or whatever, then you're probably gonna like other things at that restaurant. So if you like the the lines that Rio makes, you're probably gonna like other lines they make. If you like the flies we make, you're probably gonna like other flies we make. So if you have faith in what we're doing or trust that we are doing our due diligence, as I like to say, I overthink flies so you don't have to. That is that's what I would love people to know, right? And and and I'll say like I am designing flies to sell. I think there's two people out there there's fly tires and there's fly buyers, and they Rarely cross over because more fly tires I talk to rarely buy flies. And it's if they do, they're buying it a sample so they can go copy it, right? Whereas flight buyers don't have the time, patience, interest in learning to tie flies, and that's that's who I am catering to. I want them to be successful in the water. So let me take my hobby, my interest, my passion, and pass that on to you so you can have a great day on the water. Um and again, have confidence in what we're doing, and that you'll not just buy it once, but you'll buy it twice or three times or whatever, right? You'll come into a fly shop and ask for it by name. I mean, that's to me an ultimate confidence builder in or a reassurance in what we're doing is when you're going to buy it a second time or a third time and share it with others and pass it on to others. So that would be my last piece on flight time that I would pass on.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:15

All right. One for me, one for a friend, and one for the tree.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:20

Yeah. Yeah. Don't go out with less than three of them for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:25

Uh all right. Tactics. I want to ask you some tactics questions. These are meant to be they're they're kind of in my brain were meant to be like shotgun kind of questions, the brief answer, but you can expand, you can say whatever you want. There's no rules on the way to out there podcast. So I'll just uh start with the list. How's that sound?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:46

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:47

Uh right. What do you change first when you're not catching fish?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:54

Oh boy. I think I mean I'm probably just changing my fly first. Okay. Yeah. I yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:05

What do you think is underappreciated in fly selection?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:12

I think willingness to try something new. Um, you know, we want to go with what we either know worked last time or a friend was catching fish on or whatever, and that willingness to um venture out, try something new, cut off the fly that's working, and go to something else, I think that's all underappreciated because you're gonna maybe fish the same fly all day at that point. And even if it stops working, you're like, well, it was working, so why isn't it working now? I'll just stay with it and try harder. Like that's not gonna work, right? You've got to venture out. So um I learned that with a my gear fishing buddy, my one of my closest friends, um probably my closest friend for sure, is uh he was always great about changing tactics or or you know, not necessarily tactic, but if we were steelhead fishing with gear and we were drift fishing and it slowed down, he would put on a spoon or he'd put on a spinner or he would go to bobber and jig or something, he'd be really ready to change and try something new. Yeah, and I was always the slower to do it, and then he would stick a fish and I'd be like, hmm, okay, like he's on to something here.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:35

Yeah, and so that especially if you're not catching fish, right? Like what do you have to lose at this point?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:40

This isn't working. Right. Yeah, so that willingness to to try new, you know, when you see this more often in saltwater scenarios, but if you go out with a guide, they're gonna put on a fly that they know has worked in the past, right? So I mean you go out for permit or something where it's a really specialized fish, they're gonna be like, this is what works, tie this on, which is great. But if you're someone like me who wants to test something new or try something new, you almost have to go tie it on in secret because if they see you doing it, they're gonna be like, no, don't do that, right? Um and uh and so until I can tie it on in secret and maybe catch a fish on it or show them how it looks in the water or whatever, like win them over. Yeah, then they're willing to try something new later on. But there's a big reluctance there.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:31

Sure. Yeah, I could I I see that and I feel that as well. Don't fish the wrong fly harder. Right. It's not gonna it's just not gonna not gonna make it better. Yeah. Uh okay. What uh I've talked to a lot of people about observation and what you observe on the river and how that um informs the decisions you make, not just about flight selection, but presentation and casting and water type that you're fishing. What are uh what is maybe one of the uh more obvious things in in observation that you think gets overlooked?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:12

Well, I kind of touched on that a little bit with like just looking at the real thing. Go um as a as a fly tire, instead of looking at another bug on Instagram or whatever and tying that, know why you're tying it and go look at the real thing. Like that's something we do a lot. Where you know, look at that green drake nymph, like, look how stocky it is, look at its legs, and look at this, you know. Does it have antenna that are prominent or big tailed things that are prominent? What stands out to you when you look at the real thing and go try to imitate that instead of just tying one called green drake nymph that you've seen out there? Um, so I think to me, that's the biggest way you can become a really um more proficient at being a fly tire and a fly angler is look at what you're trying to imitate.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:06

I mean, it makes sense because there's hundreds of different pheasant tails, right? Why, you know, why does one seem to work better on this river than that river? That it's slightly different, right? Um it just makes sense that like the the they're not exactly the same in every fishery, right? Like so there's adjustments that people make and they seem to work better.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:28

And yeah, I think that's really it's I mean you take a yellow sally nymph that you know you know is maybe more more gold or yellow colored, but if you see it when it first molts, I mean it's like chartreuse, like it is so bright, and um, and then you know they'll color back up as they as they do. Um but you know, if the if you're if they're eating them at that stage of the day where they're super bright, your your gold and yellow one might not be the right color now. So yeah, um I don't know. I do a lot of screening with with uh bug screen to try to s see what's happening, and uh that's really helped me improve in which fly I start with, um, if I'm nymph fishing, especially.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:23

Okay. I'm a big believer in habit patterns. I think that they're helpful in just pattern recognition and being able to kind of it leads to success in a lot of areas. Do you have any do you have any habit patterns that you've developed that have been that particularly stand out to you uh about presentation uh and then also fighting fish?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:48

Uh I think a good habit I've I've learned, um, been told by others and then applied it to myself and had some successes out of it is to uh slow down when you're entering the water and be thoughtful about where you're entering the water and how far out you're gonna step because sometimes you don't need to step in at all, um, or you step in very little. And along those lines, like how much line are you peeling off for your first cast, right? Like in you know, more so in steelhead, I do this a lot, but it's like barely get started, just your tip, you know, your fly line isn't even out of your rod tip hardly yet, right? You're just swinging that close to you, and then you just start that close and then slowly work your way up before you ever take a step. Um, and so starting close and being sensitive to how much noise you're making when you're stepping in, um, I think those things can really help. So, yeah, that's a good habit to get into.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:53

What about fighting fish?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:54

Any habits that you have? Um I don't know. Like I feel like having the right rod helps a lot. Uh if it's too aggressive of a fast action, like too too much. Um, like just a tip flex rod, I feel like I'll lose a lot more trout on a tip flex rod versus one that'll bend deeper. Uh, there's a lot of cushion to that. I mean, it's shocking how many fish I land more on a the really soft Eurorod style versus almost any other because it just bends so much and there's it protects your tippet, and so I break off less, I I land more. Um landing them, I think, or fighting a fish, maybe being sensitive to the water temperature. So if it's if it's creeping up to that, you know, you're like uh in a few days we might go to Hoodal or something like that. You know, landing them quick, like even if you lose them, it's okay. Like, but get them in and don't overplay them. Um and and then just so I don't know, less about how I fight them and more about like how I'm handling them after the fact, you know, don't drag them up on the beach as far as fighting them, you know, land them in a net or in the water, and um, you know, just treat them with high respect.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:22

That's a good habit. That's a great habit. Uh Patrick, I'm gonna start wrapping it up. Okay. Before I do, um, how can people find out more about you, uh, some of the flies that you've tied, and maybe anything that you're excited about over at Rio that you want to pass along to folks?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:40

So my the Instagram um page that I dedicate to fly fishing or fly tying is um at BuzzBean and Rod, and there's periods in between those words. Um I, you know, as I was sharing when I post pictures, I try to have some side of some sort of educational piece to it or maybe a research piece to it at times, or I want your opinion on something. Um but I do try to I like to tell stories if you can't tell, and so passing that along, um, some sort of knowledge, I like doing that on there, and people can reach me on there. Uh I already kind of shared our our what I believe Rio is doing well at with this, and so um I won't hound that, but yeah, I mean if you could see the space I'm sitting in, it's it looks like a fly shop. There's grid wall all around me, there's materials all around me, and um one of the things I've I've enjoyed the most about that is you know, I used to like feel like I needed to say, I I need uh this color leg on my stone fly. Great. I'd order it or I'd go to the fly shop and pick it up and and then just tie it because that's what I bought. But here, if I buy every color of that leg and put it on our on our peg, I can now walk over to it, I can take it outside in the sunlight or the you know, outside light, and I can lay it next to the fly I'm trying to tie and go, huh. Weirdly, this one called tan or this one called root beer or whatever, uh, is like the perfect leg color for this fly. Whereas before I would have thought it needed to be brown or something else, right? And so anyway, it's just fun to have all this stuff around us to be able to go right to the color, take it outside, see what it looks like. Um, so it's a it's a nice creative space. Um and when I don't when I mean so my desk, which I wouldn't show you, is just a total disaster. And and I'm okay with that because partly that's how my brain is, but two, I think that's part of the creative process is like having 10 things going at once and lots of uh flies in different stages, and it's just a mess. Uh, when I get to a point where the fly is done and I'm ready to do the recipes and take step-by-step pictures and tie samples, I usually go home and I just have the materials I need on my kitchen table, and I get the music where I want, and I get the snacks that I want, and the lights how I want, and I get a stopwatch, and I just like get in the zone and I tie meticulously to get my samples where I need them to be. And it's just a different mindset than being here in the messy creative space. That's like uh these have to be perfect, meticulous examples.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:51

So that's cool, that's exciting. Last question, Patrick. Are you ready? Sure. If you could go back to when you first started fly fishing and give yourself two pieces of advice, one more tactical and one more philosophical. What would you tell yourself to help you progress as a fly fisher?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:11

Well, I think I don't know if I would have listened to this advice, but I would try to pass on some of those lessons I shared today with you. Like, don't make it just about catching, don't make it about, you know, don't let the that kind of anxiety ruin it. Like enjoy the people you're with, enjoy the the space you're in, the environment you're in, um, and maybe even try to enjoy the the to and from, the traveling to and from and the prep and the that kind of stuff too. Um because otherwise it can rob you of that excitement or that fun. That would be the philosophical thing I would try to pass on to that kid, but I don't think he would have listened very well or retained it long. Um and then uh tactical, I would have definitely encouraged him to stay as well rounded as possible. Don't get stuck in one way of doing something. Try to use different techniques, whether that's you know, like today, a trout spay versus uronem versus dry fly versus streamer fishing with a you know single-hander, um, you know, all these different techniques and all these tools, and we have tons of videos we can reference. And I mean, there's so much we can go do and learn today. And the more well-rounded we are, I think just makes us better anglers and stewards. Um, and if you I'm not trying to come down on anybody who just loves dry fly fish, because if that's what you love, do what you love, right? Like that's fine. But I would have encouraged myself to stay well-rounded and try lots of these things.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:58

Oh, that's fair. I mean, everybody's different, and I think that's good advice. And lots of good advice, lots of good information today. I really appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time to be on the show. I had a great time talking with you, and I'm excited to start tying flies now. I mean, I've I've actually motivated me to go, you know. I'm I'm excited. I'm like, I can't wait to go get uh tying flies again. So thanks, man. Thanks for being on the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:23

Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks for having me on and uh enjoyed chatting with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:31

Thanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories, and artwork, check out my blog and online gallery at waitouthere.com. If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey, please subscribe and share. Until next time, Wade Out There.