WOT 199: Nymphing Deep Pools and Experimentation with Jon Messinger

In this episode we WadeOutThere with Jon Messinger, from Denver, Colorado.  Jon grew up on a ranch in Pagosa Springs, Colorado, where time on the river was part of everyday childhood play. 

He fell in love with fishing the small streams around his home, and targeting hard to reach trout he found on the San Juan River.  Eventually, Jon moved to Bozeman where he began creating music and continued to fly fish.  Now, Jon is back in Colorado where he guides for Colorado Trout Hunters. 

We discuss techniques for nymphing deep pools, experimentation on the river, and fishing with friends when you’re the only one not catching fish.

More About Jon:
Instagram: @flymessinger
ColoradoTroutHunters.com

Related Articles at WadeOutThere:
READ: WADEOUTTHERE | Is My Nymph Getting Down?  Take a Peek.
READ: WADEOUTTHERE | The Two Best Times for Experimenting on the River
READ: WADEOUTTHERE | How to Get the Most From Your Time on the Water
READ: WADEOUTTHERE | What Makes a Good Day's Fishing?
READ: WADEOUTTHERE | Why We Take Our Children Fly Fishing
READ: WADEOUTTHERE | Don't Keep Score
READ: WADEOUTTHERE | A Dozen Techniques for Getting Your Flies Down While Nymphing

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Transcript

>> Jason Shemchuk: Welcome, John. Thanks for being on the Wade Out There podcast.

>> John: Thanks for having me.

>> Jason Shemchuk: I'm excited to talk to you. I talked to Chelsea just like last week. We probably. I don't know if we're going to air these episodes back to back. Maybe I should have had you both on at the same time, but, yeah, it was super fun to talk to her, and I'm excited to talk to you, too. I will probably talk a little bit about southern Colorado as well, but. And kind of the move up to, to where you guys are now in the south platte and all that, and you look amazing. People can't see it. We talked about this before the show, but I've got. You've got all your music stuff set up there.

>> John: Oh, yeah, I'm pretty. I'm in the dungeon right now. It's.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah, no, I mean, it looks really full up. You look like a professional podcaster. I look like a guy in a t shirt with a weight out there hat, huh?

>> John: Hey, man, you got to use this microphone for something, so.

>> Jason Shemchuk: No, it's awesome. What kind of music do you make?

>> John: I make a lot of rap music and a lot of instrumental music, and I, produce a lot of stuff, and it's kind of all over the place.

>> Jason Shemchuk: All right. Is that part of your fishing as well? Do ever the two intertwine?

>> John: sometimes they do. Sometimes I take out musicians, and other times, I've done, like, music for, you know, fly fishing ads and spots and different things on socials and stuff like that. It's a lot of fun. That's cool when they can come together like that.


Where did you start fly fishing in southern Colorado? I started in Pagosa Springs

>> Jason Shemchuk: All right. Was that part of the plan when you're down there in southern Colorado, where did. Where did you start fly fishing in southern Colorado?

>> John: I started in Pagosa Springs in southwestern Colorado. it's right by Wolf Creek pass. It's, like, 30 miles or something from the new Mexico border. So it's. It's down there. It's a lot of. It's a great place. I love it down there.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Were you fishing early on as a kid, or how did you get started in fly fishing? And I guess I'll ask music, too, if there. I mean, was that kind of part of your. Your growing up? The fly fishing and music?

>> John: Music, wasn't really a part of my life until I moved up to Montana, and started making music and started djing up there and stuff like that. So the two never really, like, connected in that way. but I started fly fishing in pagosa when I was probably about nine or ten, I want to say. my mom, she went to a ducks unlimited auction and got a fly rod and gave it to me, and she didn't buy me a reel, but I had this lamp in my room that was a fly rod with a reel attached to it, and, like, the lamp went over it. And so one day, I just. I just took the reel off. It was like this old school reel, and the thing still worked, and I put line on it, and boom, I had a setup.

>> Jason Shemchuk: What were you growing up in, like, an Airbnb fly fishing cabin that had.

>> John: That's how she designed it. Like, she.

>> Jason Shemchuk: You know, growing up, she was like.

>> John: You'Re gonna be a hunter and a fisher, and you're gonna. You know.

>> Jason Shemchuk: And I was like, okay, cool. Really? Why do you think? Why was that?

>> John: I don't know. She just. She decked out my room with all this, like, outdoor stuff, and there were trout all over everything, and.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Wow. I worked out. Thanks, mom.

>> John: I guess she. Yeah, she wins.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah. Wow.

>> John: That's cool.


Can you talk about the beginning and some of the struggles with fly fishing

>> Jason Shemchuk: All right, so you got the lamp reel and the, ducks unlimited rod and the support of your mother, for sure.

>> John: Yep.

>> Jason Shemchuk: What was the beginning like for you? I know we talked before the show about some of this, but can you talk about the beginning and some of the struggles? And I guess. Let me ask this, like, what was the tipping point? Or where did you reach a point where you felt like, okay, I've got at least the ability to catch a fish?

>> John: That did not come easily, and it didn't come for a couple years, to be honest, because I had to, you know, I had to try to build out the setup, and I wanted to get waders, and all of that stuff was pretty expensive. There wasn't. It didn't seem like there were as many opportunities at affordable equipment as there are these days. So I slowly built everything out. I was, like, wet waiting for the first year and a half or something like that. I finally got waders. I built everything out, and I learned how to tie knots, just from my friends that spin fish. Yeah, you know, stuff like that. So I didn't catch a fish for probably two years, into fly fishing, mainly because I just didn't have any friends that fly fished. I didn't know anybody that fly fish. There wasn't google, and we were in a pretty rural area slash community, and so it was just really hard to find information. I really didn't meet anybody on the river that I felt like I could talk to because I was so young. I was kind of, like, afraid of everybody else who was on the river.

>> Jason Shemchuk: They're so strangers. Like, I'm not supposed to.

>> John: Yes. Yeah. It was like, it was, like, so stranger danger. But, I just enjoyed being on the river and walking around and, you know, just experiencing the river. If I didn't catch a fish, I would go rent a tube.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah, that's a fun time in, I guess, your fly fishing experience, you know, or at least m for me, the time when it's more like being on the river. We were talking before the show about my background, and it sounds like you, fishing was just, like, one of the things we did. Like, most of the time, we were just swimming in the river or jumping off rocks or building, like, rope swings or. And then fishing was, like, one of the things that you would do when you're on the river. But I don't think that we cared that much about it, and it wasn't as, like, I'm going to the river to catch fish.

>> John: Oh, exactly. And that was everything to me, you know, being able to, like, ride my bike into town and just go try my hand at fishing, and. And if that didn't work out, just go. Go do whatever, you know, it's. It was great to just be outside, and that's in that, in that area that's really all my friends and I had to do. You know, they're. I guess I wasn't super into, like, video games and stuff at home. We had a pretty big ranch, so I was always out wandering, you know, the hills and taking care of the cattle and animals. And we had pigs and horses and ducks, geese. All right, cool stuff.

>> Jason Shemchuk: So, cattle ranch in southern Colorado?

>> John: Yeah, yeah. All right.

>> Jason Shemchuk: That. Well, so I told you that I was on a cow ranch in Montana. We have, We're like. We did the exact same things. We did.

>> John: We followed the path, man.

>> Jason Shemchuk: We had tubes. We would float the river, you know, like, all kinds of stupid stuff. And there's all kinds. Everybody. The ranch always has everything, you know, like the ranch, there's always something, some gadget or some old thing playing around.

>> John: Like, did you guys have, like, the shack with just, like, a bunch of stuff in it?

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah, we had two. There was a trapper's, cabin that had all kinds of, like, old trapper stuff in it. And then there was the lodge, which had all, I mean, books. All kinds of books and stuff. And then, like, backpacks and fishing gear and hunting stuff. And the lodge was actually. They used the lodge because they used to run, an elk camp. They used to. Not from the ranch, but they used to take people up into the north of the park. This is way, you know, I would say mid 19, mid 20th century kind of type of thing. And, so there was a lot of gear and stuff in there, but, yeah, I mean, there was a place that had all kinds of stuff, and you could go in. That's where we got all our flies. Just found a box, and it's all these big, fluffy flies.

>> John: Yeah, you go to the shed or the garage or whatever it is, and there's all this stuff, you know, you just. You're like, what is this? Let me go dig a hole with it or do something weird.

>> Jason Shemchuk: What? I think it's cool, too, that you kind of start out and you start with what you got, you know? I think there's something cool about that.

>> John: Yeah.

>> Jason Shemchuk: I would wonder what you think, though, now. I mean, because you're guiding. Do you think that that's, a barrier that doesn't need to be there? The idea that you need to, like for you as a kid, that I need to, like, build out my, my kit. You know what I mean? Like, you could pretty much fly fish depending on where you live, like, a lot of the year without waders. especially if you're young and dumb. I mean, I. I did that for a long time, and then I had waiters, and then I just were, like, one size bigger sneakers. Or, like, actually, I just had sneakers that I tore the laces and I put that over the waiters until. I mean, I didn't have boots for my waders for, like, five years. So this is going.

>> John: I know guys that still do that. They go down and get, like, the Walmart dad shoes, like, mowing the lawn shoes, and they get them in, like, a size 15 or something and then just, like, throw them over. Like, I see people like that all the time with just, like, white sneakers over there. Waiters. I love it. You know, it's.


There's a lot that you can do in fly fishing without buying equipment

It's great. And, you know, whenever I have people out that want to get into fly fishing, I always just tell them, you know, get a rod and reel. You know, just get, like, a combo pack or something. Get out there and start trying it. You know, do some wet waiting and see if you're really into it. Because it's kind of daunting to people at times when, you know, I get those questions all the time. They're like, yeah. They're, like, geared head to toe, and they're like, okay, how much is the rod? How much is the reel? How much? You know, or they don't. They're like, okay, so how much is the rod? And I'm like, oh, well, the rod is x amount of dollars. And they're like, well, is the reel comes with it? I'm like, no, no, the reel doesn't come with it. You got to get the reel, then you got to get the line.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah.

>> John: And you got. You know, and I go through this list, and it's just, I watch them kind of droop a little bit, and that's not necessary. You know, I just tell them, get a. Get a combo pack from, like, Reddington or something or whatever, and get out there and see if you really like it before you invest that much time and money into that.

>> Jason Shemchuk: You wouldn't buy, like, the brand new set of skis if you're not even sure if you're gonna go skiing. Right. You know, it's the same.

>> John: Yeah. Yeah.

>> Jason Shemchuk: I think that that's important for people to understand, is that there's a lot that you can do in fly fishing without having to get. Get all that stuff right away.

>> John: It's true. But it's like. It's like golf or anything else, you know? If you think. If you think something is going to make you better or make something easier or help you with your hard times on the water or whatever, you might actually buy that, and that's why so many interesting gadgets and gizmos and things exist within fly fish.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah, that's a really good point.

>> John: Guilty of buying because you think, oh.

>> Jason Shemchuk: this will do the trick. This will be the thing. Yeah, it's like that guy and the golf guy that's got all the gadgets attached to his body and the ball hanging from the hat and all that stuff. He's going to fix his sweat.

>> John: Absolutely. And I'm totally guilty. That was me at one point. And, I was like, okay, what can I do? Where can I, you know, what gadget is going to make me better at this?

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah, yeah.

>> John: None of them.


Do you remember a trip or a day or something that sparked your interest in fishing

>> Jason Shemchuk: Do you remember, like, was there a trip or a day or something that stood out in your brain where you had kind of a light bulb moment when you were fishing? that you kind of started picking up things or kind of got you.

>> John: Over that hump in Pagosa Springs? I met this kid Eric, and his dad, Greg Jorgensen was the owner of the fly shop there. And Eric had been fishing for a while and he was kind of like anti at that point. And he was like, oh, you know, like, my dad makes me fish. And I was like, oh, your dad fishes? And so, yeah, I went down there and I like begged my mom for my birthday to get me a, like a, it was, it was like a casting clinic slash guided trip. And Greg took me out on the river and we were there for five minutes and he was just, the San Juan gets really low, by the way. Like in the middle late summer, it gets so low, it's like a trickle. And so it was basically just rocks everywhere and a couple little pools that you could actually catch a fish. And we rolled up to the river and he just like toss this dry in and got an eat immediately and pulled a fish out. And I was like, oh, my God, I am an idiot because I have, like, because it's been like two years and I haven't even caught a fish and I'm not taking it seriously. So he took some time with me and showed me certain things that really turned the light bulb on in my head and introduced me to a whole world that just kind of snowballed from there. And I just kept going back to the shop and I'd ask him where to go or what was working or, you know, do you remember, do you.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Remember some of those things or are there any things that he taught you that you now pass along as like. Cause you're teaching all the time now too? Anything that gets, like, passing, along from the same guy to now in your teaching repertoire.

>> John: one of the things he told me is, he was teaching me how to cast and how to mend. And we were working with drys because there was a little pool with a bunch of risers in front of us, and he wanted me to mend and have a good presentation. And he said, and I still use this to this day, as corny as it might sound. But he was like, you wouldn't eat a steak on roller skates. And I was like, well, okay. You know, and that's. Some people, I say that, and they're like, oh, I would eat a steak on. I'd eat a burger on roller skates. Any. You know. But what he meant was, if it doesn't look like it's supposed to be there, and if it doesn't look like something that they want to eat, they're never going to eat it. Whereas I always thought that it was how I would manipulate the fly or move it around the water or make it look like a struggling insect or, something. Or, you know. And I I always fished with streamers before that because I had fished with spin gear.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah.

>> John: Previously. So I thought, okay, it's the same type of thing, you know. So I had streamers with no weight and no, you know, it was just, it wasn't working. Whatever I was doing was not working. And so he said that to me, and it kind of made me think about it, and I was like, well, maybe I should learn how everything, you know, is supposed to be in the water naturally. And how these bugs float, how they drift in the water, how, you know, leeches and. And small sculpins and stuff like that are supposed to act. And maybe that's a big part of it, as opposed to just being like, hey, fish, chase this. Chase it around.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Chase you.

>> John: know. And so now I use that to this day. Just when people are having a hard time on the river or not mending or creating a good drift to get down to fish, you know, I tell them, you know, you wouldn't eat a cheeseburger on roller skates. Roller skates. Or on any type of, you know, you wouldn't eat a.

>> Jason Shemchuk: You wouldn't eat a ham sandwich on, a trash can.

>> John: On a trash. Yeah. There you go.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah.

>> John: See, I'm gonna steal that now. But you'd be surprised how many people are like, well, I actually would. If I'm hungry, then I'm gonna eat it.

>> Jason Shemchuk: If it's on a trash can. Yeah. You get the point, though. You get what I'm saying. It's a whole deeper thing, which you just explained.


I want to talk about fish in the pools. You said that was something that excited you

I want to, put a pin in fishing pools. I want to. We'll come back to the San Juan and kind of your transition up to the south platte, because I'm interested in what that's been like for you. Fishing kind of the way south, Colorado, moving up to the south platte, but similarities and differences. But I want to talk about fish in the pools. You said that was something that was, exciting for you, before the show that you like doing, kind of targeting those fish that are swimming around in deep pools. Does that go back to kind of this early time down, learn to fly fish? Or is it, something that's come on afterwards? What is it about that that's uniquely, intriguing for you?

>> John: Well, like I said, the San Juan tends to run really dry the upper San Juan in the summertime, you know, especially if it hasn't been a good snow year. So they would, you know, come through and every now and then they do, like, a broodstock in pagosa, and there'd be all these big fish, you know, like 20 inch fish and running around, and they'd just be stupid. And pretty soon they get, they get super smart. And I remember being on a bridge over this pool that was one that we used to swim in, and the water was particularly clear, and I could see fish way down at the bottom. I was like, man, like, I can't even nymph that deep to get down to those fish. Like, I really want to, learn how to target these fish that are just sitting at the bottom. They've had enough. You know, they're, they're x amount in fish years old. They've seen it all. And I want to find out how to get to those fish in a way where they can, you know, respond to me. And also, when I lived in Bozeman, there was this place on the gallanton on the gallatin that I used to go with my little sister, and we used to get, like, little scuba snorkel masks or whatever and jump into this pool that kind of recirculated. And so you would jump into this pool and it would suck you way down to the bottom and then spit you out way downstream, but then, like, take you back upstream. It was, it was a crazy spot. We used to go there and, you know, put these masks on.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Sounds dangerous, actually.

>> John: Way down to the bottom sounds very dangerous.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Like, don't do this.

>> John: Anyone's died there. But it was. No, don't do this. Don't do this at all. But we would jump in, and I remember getting sucked to the bottom and seeing all these huge trout at the bottom of this pool that was, like, so deep. I just. I was like, man. Like, I. With my nymph rigs, like, I I can't. There's no way that I could get to these fish. I didn't even know that fish like this existed in this pool because all I caught were, like, you know, 1214 inches at best in this pool. So I've seen all of that kind of, you know, just. It. It built this. This need to. To try to fish deep pools.

>> Jason Shemchuk: My son likes to do that, too. I got to throw that in there. He likes to bring his goggles to the river, and he'll, like, start up at the front and, like, float down. Just look around.

>> John: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

>> Jason Shemchuk: So there's, like, this in between stage I've taken. There's a stream around here that's shallow, enough to where he won't be, like, swept away, certainly. No, what you're describing, I'm not putting my son in any of those types of places.

>> John: No, no.

>> Jason Shemchuk: But there's a stream that's shallow enough that I can kind of. He can just kind of play over there, and then if I catch a fish, he can reel it in until he wants to cast or whatever, but he likes. I think that's another fun activity for young people to do on the river is, like, just go swimming or bring your goggles is a huge one to see that part of the world, or, you know, underneath the water.

>> John: Yeah.


Now I want to get into the tactics of fishing deep pools

>> Jason Shemchuk: Now I want to get into the tactics of fishing deep pools, I think, you know, because.

>> John: Absolutely.

>> Jason Shemchuk: I'm, you're describing this, and I'm. I mean, I'm just thinking about cheeseman Canyon, man. I mean, I'm just walking around these boulders, looking into these deep pools, and I've caught some nice fish in cheeseman Canyon. Not a lot. When I was in Colorado the first time, you know, when I was still learning, I was really just getting my ass kicked a lot. but since I've gone back, I would. I think this is a metric of my improvement, hopefully. But I've. I've. I feel, like, a little more confident, let's put it that way. And the skunks are not as many, I guess. Let's. Let's say that. But, I don't. I I don't even mess with the deep pools, man. I'm just like. I try and I'm like. I'm just kind of, you know, I don't know if I'm wasting my time. Am I wasting my time or what am I doing wrong? What should I think about with these deep pools? I have a lot of. I have a list of questions, but right off the bat, what stands out to you?

>> John: Oh, with. Well, so, like in cheeseman Canyon when you see those deep pools and you see those fish down there and some of they're huge.

>> Jason Shemchuk: That's the thing. I mean, I could just try and catch it all day long.

>> John: Yeah. And there's always going to be those ones where it's like you might have like a, manhole sized window that you look into this, you know, it's like between rocks and you see like three fish that you'll never be able to drift to and stuff like that.

>> Jason Shemchuk: It's almost impossible to get a natural drift. But maybe not. That's why I'm talking to you.

>> John: But I get pretty unconventional sometimes. If. If I see a fish that I really want to try to have a go at.

>> John: I've been. You can ask Chelsea, but I've been. I've been known to build out my leaders to like 25ft before and. Yes, just stupid stuff.

>> Jason Shemchuk: I love it. Well, it's only stupid if it doesn't work. You caught some fish this way, I guess, right?

>> John: I actually have. I've lost a lot of flies, thousands of dollars worth of flies and hundreds of man hours of tying at the bottom of these rivers. But that's the only way you get down to those fish. And when you finally connect with one of those fish, it forms an addiction in a way. And, you know, for me it was building out my leaders using an ungodly amount of weight on these rigs and working with different ways to not have to rely on my indicator necessarily. So, I mean, there's, there's certain places that I go where. I mean, a good example of this and everyone knows about it, but it's the toilet bowl, you know, up there on the frying pan. It's right up against the dam. It's right where the water spills out and it's this deep pool and there's always people there and there's a ton of big fish there and there's, you know, it's, it's. The spot's blowing, you know, it's this place that, that I can never even fish at because someone's always there from dawn until, you know. 02:00 a.m. in the morning. So learning how to fish those holes without an indicator was a really big turning point for me. And I don't necessarily get into gyro that much or any of that stuff. I joke around and call it eastern euro nymphing because it's kind of hood. And I just use a lot of weight. I extend my leaders and I learn how to present it in a way where I drag my flies at the same speed as the water or what I perceive is the same speed as the water that might be on the bottom. And tight line nymphing is, it's just been around forever and it's something that I love to do. A lot of my friends do it in deep pools and based on feel, it's so funny because you're like 15ft down there and you feel a bump and boom, you set that hook and there's something there and chances are it's something big. And so I took a lot of what I learned from fishing pools like that and kind of brought it to the river. Now given if you're 20ft away from a hole that you want to fish and you can't get right over it, that, obviously doesn't work. So you still have to use indicators a lot. But weight is one of the most important things in the world when you're fishing deep water and looking for large trout or any trout in the bottom of those pools. You know, it's it's a lot different when you start really experimenting with like bowling ball weights and stuff like that.


How do you decide on the weight for your sight fishing flies

>> Jason Shemchuk: Well, yeah, let's talk about that. How do you go about, So, you know, a lot of people fished weighted flies now. So I'm imagining that that's not going to work as well just because I would think the fly is not able to naturally or present naturally. You know, it's just kind of too tight. Or maybe I'm wrong, but I would imagine you put a bunch of weight on the line, that's going to go to the bottom and let the fly kind of float around, more naturally. Is that accurate?

>> John: There's a, there's a fly that I like to tie and I, I won't say what it is, but some of my friends call it a spark plug. And that's just because it's, it's, I got an ungodly amount of, you know, wrap on it. Whether it's lead or whatever, it's, it gets to the bottom. It's, it's heavy and so heavy flies are interesting because, you know, under an indicator, if you're fishing really deep, you don't need to have that split shot above those flies. If it's a heavy fly, you're going directly, you know, there's, there's nothing between your indicator and your fly because you're using that fly as weight. If that fly is something that they're keyed into or something that they like to eat, that they might not necessarily find that deep, then it's awesome. I mean, you have a direct, so you like that.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Okay, more than that would be better than split shot. That'd be step number one. Okay.

>> John: Yeah. But you, you have to obviously know what depth you want to be at because too deep, you're gonna just snag on the bottom, lose a ton of those flies. Too shallow and you might not be hitting that really, really slow water that's at the bottom, which is what that weight might be good for. And so I am a big fan of tying really heavy flies, really heavy lead flies, over using a ton of split shot. If you can find a larger fly that's a good attractor that you can make some mods to and make your own or wrap with more wire or whatever you can do to get it, have a caterpillar of weights on the line, you know, do you rely more.

>> Jason Shemchuk: On the sight fishing or rules of thumb that you have or how do you decide on the weight? Or is it trial and error? That was, I'm, snagged up twice in a row. That's too much.

>> John: Yeah, the familiarity really helps. A lot of times. Like if I've been to a spot, a lot of times I'm like, okay, well, the flows are this, which means that this pool is, you know, x amount of feet deep or whatever. But if it's a place that I've never been to and I'm just assuming that this is a deep hole or, you know, I kind of make my best judgment and then I adjust by six to twelve inches every few drifts to try to see if I can find the bottom. Once I find the bottom, I hope and pray that I didn't snag and lose my entire rig. But I use that as kind of like a benchmark for how deep I'm wanting to go in those pools. And will you use tags or do.

>> Jason Shemchuk: You tie off the hook or are you going to use multiple flies or none of the above or all the above?

>> John: in the beginning, you know, two flies is fine, especially if you're just kind of prospecting water. And I don't always necessarily go to the deepest pool and try to find the biggest fish or anything like that, but it's a mystery. It's the allure of the mystery that draws me in the bottom of that pool.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah. Know, I mean, certain rivers, you know that they're there because you've seen them in certain pools. So you know that in that habitat, that's where they like to be. And, you know, they're big. And so it's a combination of the joy of problem solving and the joy of catching a big fish that would drive me to, like, wanting to give it a shot. And maybe you're not doing that all day long. Like, I'm probably not going to just set up for hours trying to do that. but it's helpful to have some tools to, like, give it a shot. If you're like, I'm gonna give this a go. I'm gonna try and catch this fish down there. Especially sight fishing.

>> John: Yeah, yeah. If you're in clear water and you're above a pool, on a bridge or, up on a high bank or something like that, and you can see something down at the bottom, you know, you want to make sure that you get down to that. And sight fishing is so awesome because it gives you a window into fish behavior, and fish behavior is everything. When you're trying to catch those fish, you know, you want to see how deep they are. Are they belly down on the bottom? Are they mid column? What are they doing? What are they eating? What are they going for? And you put all these things together, and you try to find your best case scenario out of what your educated guests might be as far as trying to, trying to find these fish. And it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

>> Jason Shemchuk: So it sounds like I'm hearing you say long leaders. So you're gonna absolutely run out with, like, tippet, I guess. And, so if you're running, I guess, what's your typical leader? We do a nine foot five weight or a nine foot four?

>> John: Yeah, I'll do, like, you know, like.

>> Jason Shemchuk: And then off of that. So what would you start with? And then is it just you taper it all the way down or you just really thin monofilament? Yeah.

>> John: I don't typically use nine foot leaders, so most of the time it's like the seven and a half foot leaders or whatever.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah.

>> John: and. Or the seven foot leaders, and I build those out. four x is usually fine. Three x, if I'm really gonna, you know, go deep, and then I taper down the tippet. I try to use really strong fluorocarbon, and I just extend my leader until I'm satisfied. And it's not the best for casting, you know, because if you have, if you have this long leader, you don't have the weight of the line behind you. So you have to get creative with all these things. And that's why it's kind of a junkyard science to me, because it's so, like, it just seems to break so many rules. But, okay, I have fun doing it.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Weight long leaders. And then a, tight lining would help, too, because you're not as dependent upon the indicator.

>> John: If you're close enough to the deepest part of the pool, you know, like if you have a drop off with, you know, like a back Eddy or, you know, something that you really want to try to get to the bottom of, then tight lining is awesome because especially if you have clear water and a large, tractor nymph or, you know, large front fly that you can sight and watch where it's going. You know, like, sometimes I'll use, like, a sparkle minnow or something like this. So something loud and crazy to just kind of see where I'm at. Or even if you're streamer fishing and you dead, drift a streamer and just see where the current is taking it. You learn how to adjust your drag across the water, you know, as far as the motion goes with your arm and the rod, and pretty soon you've got the keys to the castle, if, if you can really dial that in. And it's, it's fun for me because I get bored just staring at a bobber. And even though I love it, I have, I have so much fun just trying to, it's like a game to me, you know, like, what do I have to do to get good at this? You know, what do I have to do to achieve this, this drift that I'm looking for in this deep pool?


You mentioned drop offs. Do you, do you find it important to hit the drop off

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah, you mentioned drop offs. That was what I was gonna ask you. Do you, do you find it important to hit the drop off? Like, it's always a challenge for me to, like, have, I've been in these situations. I haven't gone as deep, you know, quote unquote deep as you have. But, where it's like, okay, I want to fish this hole. I want to fit. I know it's deep and it's a drop off. And I'm always, like, trying to not get snagged up on the riffle coming into the hole. But I need all that weight. Do you, I mean, do you solve that by just more weight? Elevate it until it gets to the ledge and then drop it? Or how do you think about drop offs like that?

>> John: See, that's, that's, that's exactly the, the route that, you know, your, your logical mind takes. You're like, okay, well, if I can drop this up here and lift it until it gets to the shelf and then drop my rod and, and put my bobber on the water, then maybe I can miss all this stuff above it. And that's one of the things that I just love about those challenging situations is because it's not always about just flipping your bobber over and then hoping for the best. You know, sometimes you have to really finesse your flies down into those situations.


Let's talk about this. How you land in these fish. I mean, a lot of times

>> Jason Shemchuk: Let's talk about this. I didn't think we were going to talk about this, but now, you've got this bad mama jamma on there. How you land in these fish. I mean, a lot of times I'm fishing from places where I'm like, I start looking around. Like, if I catch a fish here, like, I'm screwed. There's no way I'm gonna land this fish. What am I gonna do? I had to, like, hike up the rock.

>> John: It's the rock that everybody wants to stand on while they fish. but nobody can net a fish from, right? So, you know, you know, it's, it's. And then with a built out leader like that, especially if I'm, especially if I have an indicator on, like, let's say my indicator is like 15ft away from my flies. Obviously, if I reel in up to the indicator, I'm still super far away from that fish.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah.

>> John: and so most of the time, that's where a fishing buddy really comes in handy. But if I'm by myself, you know, I just, I just have to really try my best to pull it in and charge it with the net.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah. Have, a plan. Having a plan for where I'm gonna go or how I'm gonna get down.

>> John: Sometimes you gotta beach that whale.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah, yeah. You gotta make a jump for it sometimes.

>> John: Yeah, yeah.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Okay.


I think it's important to learn how to fish deep pools

Anything else on, pools that you think is interesting or tactical that before we move on, I, wanna give you the chance to.

>> John: I just have always been a fan of really trying to find out where the big fish go. a lot of times, you know, as anglers, we target migratory fish or fish at the beginning of a spawn or at, certain times of year you can find these really big browns or really big cub bows or, you know, rainbows or whatever. And it's always been interesting to me to try to find out where those fish go. Like, you know, you can't just catch these fish in the fall or the spring. Like, where.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Where do they go?

>> John: Like, what do they do? Where are they at? And when I started to find them in certain types of water, everything just kind of clicked to me. You know, these fish don't want to be out in the riffle in 3ft of water. They don't want, you know, they don't want to. Some of them are predatory and so streamers and stuff like that is. It's great for this deep water. And that opens up the deep water, opens up a whole new world. And then you start really getting into streamer fishing, really getting into deep water nymphing and it just kind of snowballs from there.

>> Jason Shemchuk: That's a really good point because it doesn't have to be ridiculously deep for it to be important to learn how to fish deep pools. I mean, we've been talking about the extreme almost comically, but, I mean, I was just fishing the other day and, you know, I was just questioning, am I even getting down there? You know, I mean, how deep is that? If I was to walk across this river, you know, like, how deep is that? And more often than not, I think I'm not getting. I'm not deep enough. And not only am I not deep enough, but there's all this, there's all these eddies and kind, of seams that it's cutting across. Like, the deeper you go, the more water is kind of impacting that line, the less natural the presentation can look because you have so much more stuff kind of impacting your fly line. and so I think these techniques work even if it's, you know, maybe it's not 12ft deep pool, but you've been fishing three or 4ft of water and now it's 6ft deep. There's a lot of fish down there, you know, because, I mean, I know they're down there. I've, I've jumped off the cliff with my goggles, like you and seen them.

>> John: Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. And, and weight is so underrated and unfortunately, you know, unexplored to a lot of anglers. a lot of people might put on what they think is a lot of weight and they have no idea how fast their bugs are sinking, if it's something that they can't see. And on the south Platte. A lot of times people fish really small bugs and, you know, I've, I used to fish like strictly size twenty six s and stuff like that. And you know, whatever I can do to get a deckers fish. And the weight is so important, you know, in these situations that I just don't think that people give it enough thought. You know, a lot of times I'm out with people that are, you know, they know how to fish, they catch fish in certain circumstances, and they learn how to target those fish within that landscape of the water, you know what I mean? Or waterscape.

>> Jason Shemchuk: I guess I know how to do the things I know how to do. But if it's not, if those things aren't working now, it's really, I'm having to, okay. I've, I've got to really adjust, you know, and really think outside the box. And I'd rather just catch fish where I'm comfortable, you know.


There are so many variables when casting a fly in fast water

>> John: Yeah, well, and there's so many variables, you know, like is water super oxygenated where you're casting? Is that, is that weight going to sink really fast in that bubbly water that's at the top of the, the pool that, you know, where the spillover is happening and is?

>> John: Have you actually taken the time to drop that weight in the water in front of you and watch how fast it sinks? Have you sat there and counted, you know, counted the seconds?

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yes. I'm glad you said that because that's something I do, and I've always thought that was crazy. But I can, you can kind of tell, you can put it in this water and it's not the same depth or speed, but you can tell, like, you know, if you put on a pheasant tail, a bead head pheasant tail, and you put it, you, you throw it out where you can see it, you know, 4ft in front of you and 2ft of water and it doesn't sink, like to the bottom immediately, you know, like, oh, that's, that's not a tungsten beethead. That must have been one of those I tied with my cheap bead heads from a while ago or something. And it's no way going to get down there. It's not going to happen at all, whether it's a deep pool or not. I mean, it's just not going to get down to the strike zone on the bottom. I do that all the time just to make sure, like, the fly is going to go down. Yeah, I like, I make an estimate, like, okay, it went about this rate down. So multiply that by. It's going to have to be four times more that if I'm going there in that water, I make all these, quote, scientific decisions.

>> John: Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's great because there's like knuckleheads like us, out there and we're like, oh, the, the speed of the water versus weight of sink versus, you know, and you're trying your best to, figure it out. But that's the awesome part about it, you know. I mean, I see people fishing really deep pools or, you know, not even really deep pools, just something that's chest deep or whatever. When they've been fishing, you know, two or 3ft of water all day, and they're just putting on like, they're like doubling their weight. They're like, oh, well, it's twice as deep, so I'll double my weight. It's like, well, no, you know, let's, let's really get down there. And the tungsten putty is, is super important to me, for doing that. You know, I mean, there's the, the nymphing mud and there's a couple different kinds of stuff that you can use. But for me, just being able to throw a little bit more tungsten on, throw a little bit more on and then, you know, see where I'm at is awesome because you don't want to sit there, you know, chewing on split shot all day.

>> Jason Shemchuk: And do you have a tungsten that you like? What kind of putty has worked for you?

>> John: it's the, nymphing mud. It's. I can't even remember. it's like Jay's nymphy mud or something. Don't quote me on that because I don't even know. It's in a blue, it's in a blue container, yellow tag, and it's. It's the shit. I love it. I love that stuff. But it's, it's just, it's just so underrated because there's fast water. There's. I mean, there's. There's so many variables that what you do every time is, is not always going to work. And I think that that promotes, you know, people going back to the same spot over and over again because they're like, oh, well, I got this the right way and I've got my rig dialed in and I know I can catch fish there. And in reality, they can catch fish anywhere. They just might not have experimented enough with their weight or with their drift or whatever the case may be. I think that's one of the main reasons why people keep going back to the familiar spots and fishing where they know they can catch a fish.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah, what you said is they haven't experimented enough, and it's hard to do that because, I mean, it sounds easy, like, oh, yeah, just go out and experiment. But every time you experiment, I get this feeling that I'm missing out. It's like this fear of missing out. Like, okay, you know what I'm saying?

>> John: That's exactly what it is.

>> Jason Shemchuk: You're like, okay, well, this is, like, totally crazy. I don't even know if this is going to work, but let me do this thing that I heard about on the podcast, or let me do this thing that I've tried. like that I've caught fish before, and sometimes it's hard to remember that. Like, there was a point when everything was an experimentation, right? Like, you had to experiment to, like, start nymphing when you were only doing dry flies, and then you had to experiment to put on split shot, and you had to experiment to do weighted nymphs and, tungsten bead heads. And, like that, everything was like a little dip your toe in the water. Whether or not that came from experimentation or you fished with a guide or one of your friends or somebody, there's some, like, proof of concept that sunk into your head. I think it's hard to just take a time. And also, we're limited in time. So you go to the river, and you're like, I don't want to waste, quote, waste this time experimenting, but if you don't, you limit yourself in the long run. You know what I mean? I mean, I think that one thing that I didn't think about a lot is fishing different types of water. Right. It took me a long time to get over this hump of, like, it's not the fly. It could just be they're in different water types, you know, in temperatures and where they'll be in riffly water or versus deep water based on temperatures and all these things. Like, I didn't understand. I wouldn't say I completely understand now, but I understand more than I did before. But that, one of those water types is this deeper water. So having. I mean, it's a big part of any river system is these deep pools. So having a. Having a strategy just makes sense, because it could be that they're just hanging out there now.

>> John: Yeah. And, I mean, it goes without saying that the fish hang in certain types of lies. And they feed, you know, in certain types of places. I mean, typically, you find in those deeper pools, you find the bigger fish towards the rear third of the pool.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah.

>> John: you find a lot of the feeders and smaller fish. And Chelsea and I would call them sentinel fish. They let the big fish know what's going on.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Call them pounders.

>> John: Yeah, pounders.

>> Jason Shemchuk: I learned that from. That's a shout out to Dominic at Troutvin. They do, they call them pounders out there.

>> John: Powders. Yeah, yeah.

>> Jason Shemchuk: You know, just a little pounder.

>> John: Just a little pounder, you know, but you, you might find those right at the shelf, you know, trying to feed on, on that food source that's kind of getting compressed towards the bottom as the flow goes over the shelf. Yeah. and then you find these other fish towards the back of the pool doing the same thing in a different way where they don't have to move much because they're kind of at the back of the pool just waiting for food to come to them.


Redford: When you're guiding, there's only a certain amount of water

And so guiding, really, you know, especially guiding the deckers area in the south Platte. It gets really crowded up there. And, you know, when you're guiding, there's only a certain amount of water that you can fish on. we don't, you know, we don't get to fish the entire deckers stretch or, you know, up on the Wycamp road or places like that. Some, some outfits do, some don't. But for the most part, we're kind of limited to the amount of water that we deal with. and if there's a ton of people everywhere, you know, the average Joe can just say, okay, well, I've had enough. It's too crowded. I can't, you know, I'm just gonna go to a different spot, or I'm just gonna stop fishing for the day. When you're out there with guests and people that want to fish, you have to try to learn about different ways to catch these fish. Even if there's one fish that's in a very problematic place to be putting a client or, or whatever, you know, and that that kind of goes around. And so a lot of, you know, myself and a lot of my friends and in the guide workforce, we have had to get weird.

>> Jason Shemchuk: It's time to get weird.

>> John: It's time to get weird. So, you know, like, the things that we do out there are weird sometimes, and sometimes they work, and then all of a sudden, that becomes a new tactic. And it's funny because there's so many rules and so many, like, no, you can't do this. Or, no, it's this, and no, this is how it goes, and this is how it doesn't go. And then you're doing it wrong. And maybe you are, but maybe you aren't.

>> Jason Shemchuk: You catch a fish, it's weird until it's not right, and then it's like, oh, yeah, maybe this, and maybe it's not. It's not what you're gonna do right out the gate. Maybe I go fishing and I kind of go, I kind of gravitate towards what I know. Like, okay, I know this kind of section of river fishes this way, and I know that at this temperature and this type of weather, this is a good plan. And this hatch is on. So I'm going to kind of go down this kind of expected route. But, you know, when that's not working, there's, instead of guessing now, instead of experimenting, you're like, you're just doing this all the time. You're just, you're deliberately kind of trying to figure these things out. And I think what you bring up is a great point. Like, when you're out there guiding, I've already tried this and it's worked. Maybe it'll work today. You know, I'm now I'm just executing another technique. I mean, there's a sense of urgency. You know, there's got to be a sense of urgency. Like, okay, this ain't working. If you don't try something else, like, you're not going to have a lot of success over time.

>> John: yeah. And you still might fail, and there still might be a bad day, and, you know, but if you don't try, and if you just get mad and upset at the amount of people that are out there or the choices of water that you don't have, then you're not really doing anything connected to your purpose, which, is to help people catch fish. And obviously, fish aren't going to eat when they're not going to eat. There's nothing you can do about those things. You're not out there trying to just hopefully you're not out there just trying to snag a fish for your client or whatever, but it's a wild animal, man. Most of the time. Sometimes maybe not so wild, but, you know, you do what you can to achieve that goal. And it's the best feeling. When you do something that's not ordinary and not, you know, perceived as 101 and you actually succeed, it's a great feeling. And there's been days where, you know, I was having a hard day. We found a fish doing something stupid and something that just, you know, things like that. And I go, at the end of the day, I'll see, you know, like one of the ogs or something. And there's, there's people that have been guiding for 30 and even, like, 40 years out there. And, you know, I I used to see, like, Dwayne Redford out there a bunch and he, he taught Chelsea and I so much about everything. I mean, he really gave us a good sense of understanding for, you know, these situations. But I'd be like, oh, well, guess what I did. I went over here. Oh, well, that's called, you know, that's.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Of course that's.

>> John: I mean, you don't do that over there. That's where I go and I do that. And then they, we always get, you.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Know, like, I'm happy that you finally figured that out.

>> John: And it's like, well, okay, yeah, cool. You know, so just because people don't talk about it a lot and people don't say that they do these weird things, it doesn't mean that they don't. And it doesn't mean that they haven't tried them. It doesn't mean that they're not successful. It's just.

>> Jason Shemchuk: That's a great point. You know, you might think that it's crazy and wild, but, dude, that's just tightlining. You know? Tried tightlining. That's what that thing is that we do.

>> John: Yeah, it's great, you know, like, Chelsea and I call it the Garden of Eden because, like, my, my good friend, one of my best friends, Danny, you know, we go to this river and we're like, oh. Like, this spot is cool. And this spot is cool. And, you know, we, we give each other reports and he's got this, he's got, like, names for all these pools and these places that we go. And it's. It's awesome because, like, if you don't name pools, then I don't know, you know, everyone's got their own, their, their own names for pools.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah, I'm starting to do that with my son.

>> John: Exactly. So Chelsea and I, we went to this river. We found this pool. It was great. And we were like, oh, man. Immediately, I hit up Danny. I was like, yeah, man, like, this pool down here. Like, oh, my God, like, you gotta go there. I saw a couple in there that are just gigantic. Like, you gotta go. And he was like, he was like, oh, where is it? I was like, oh, down here. And you go around this. He's like, oh, yeah, the garden of Eden. Like, that's the garden of Eden. And so every time Chelsea and I, like, figure something out or have those moments, we're like, oh, yeah, the garden of Eden. You never heard of the garden of. Everyone knows about the garden of Eden.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah.

>> John: And it's just kind of, that's just kind of what we call those, those situations now, so.


Sometimes it never feels like a good time to experiment when fishing

>> Jason Shemchuk: Well, I think another thing, that I think about when I'm experimenting is we talked about kind of like, it never feels like a good time to experiment when I I would like to say that there's a lot of times when I'm out there, like, trying new, crazy, wild things on the river. That's not true. I mean, I do it from time to time, and the times when I will deliberately, I'll do it when I'm desperate, when I'm just, like, not catching any fish, and I'm like, well, I got to try something different. It's usually, like, with weight or something, but the other time is when I'm catching a lot of fish. And I think that, sometimes people forget about that, and that's absolutely, that's when I, I forget about it. But it's, like, the best time for me to experiment on the river because I don't have that fear of missing out. It's like, dude, you're good. You've caught, like, a bunch of fish. Like, things are good. Like, why don't we try something else now? It's kind of a double edged sword, because maybe you don't need to do something different to catch fish. So maybe you're kind of artificially creating some kind of tactic, but at least you're, I don't feel as bad about trying different tactics or techniques, when I'm catching fish. You know what I mean?

>> John: Like, yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's a great point that you made right there. I mean, when, when it's going off and it's going great, and you've, you've already caught more fish in the first 2 hours than you normally do all day. Yeah. that's a great time to experiment. That's a great time to kind of to move around, to look in different place, like go fish somewhere that you're afraid to fish.

>> Jason Shemchuk: I'm gonna fish, like, wet fly. I'm gonna swing flies, which I don't do very often, you know? Or I'm gonna throw streamers, which I don't do very often. Like, those are the times when I'll start doing stuff like that where it's like, I don't do this very often because I don't catch a lot of fish when I do it, but things are pretty good right now. So let me see how this works.

>> John: Well, and some of those things are like lost art forms in a way. You know, I mean, like, you know, twitching soft hackles and stripping and retrieving soft tackles in certain situations on the water. I mean, that's, that's always going to be so much fun. And everyone gets stuck in their ways, which is fine, but part of it is I just, I feel like everybody is so used to getting what they want in, in life, you know? I mean, like, I'm old enough now that I can date myself and say like, oh, like going to blockbuster used to be the coolest because like, you know, you go around and you choose a video and like, if it wasn't there, it just wasn't there. And there's this thing with fishing where it's almost like everybody wants the same exact experience every time that they go because that's what makes them happy and that's great. If the goal is for them to be happy, then that's awesome. But you can sacrifice a few days even though time is precious and even though you might not get out much, you can sacrifice a few days, days to learn new things for the future. So, you know, pretty soon it's like a few months later or it's the next season and all of a sudden you have all this new stuff under your belt that you know how to do and then all of a sudden you're not just stuck in your, you know, time warp where it's like over and over again. You're going out there to go to those places and to do those things and, you know, it's like, it's just hard to, you know, it's kind of hard to articulate. But the point that I'm trying to make is it just seems like so much has been built off of familiarity with, you know, especially with new anglers and people that might be new to the sport and there's so much to learn and so much time to learn it. You can't just fast forward to those rewards. Yeah, it's like if you, if you play golf and you know, I relate a lot of things to golf because it's so frustrating. But if you are at the driving range and you just learn how to hit the crap out of your driver and, you know, you, you have all these long drives and then you're like, okay, cool, like, I'm good at golf now. That's, like, not the truth. You know what I mean? Like, you, you have to be well rounded with all of those things. Not just to, not, not because you want to be like Mister hotshot on the river that knows everything, but just so that you can expand the fun that you might have to wherever you want to go. And that eliminates people running down to spots and arguing over, oh, this is my spot. I was here for your fishing across from me. You're doing this? Yeah, you know, and it's like with the river getting more crowded than it ever has, year after year, I just think that it's important that people give themselves a chance to thrive anywhere and say, okay, like, let me go up here, let me do this, let me do that. You know, and then it's not, it's not so important that you, that your day goes exactly the same as it did the last time and that you get that hole where you catch fish and that you, you know, I'm here and I worked hard to be here. And this is my, you know, and it, it creates this false sense of ownership for the river because maybe you've been, you know, fishing here all the time. You know, I've been fishing this hole since you were a little whippersnapper type thing. And it's, well, it creates a false.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Sense of skill level. It creates a false sense of, like, reality.

>> John: Pretty much, yeah.

>> Jason Shemchuk: You know, I mean, if you go there and you catch fish every time, does not good fisherman equal, you know, I mean, it's, those are not the same things. Like, if you can go there and catch a fish every time, like, well, I don't know if you're as good as you think you are, man. Like, it seems like that's just kind of an easy spot to catch fish.

>> John: And training wheels are great, you know, I mean, everybody needs training wheels, everyone needs their comfort zone, and everyone needs to feel like they, they're succeeding. And that's, and that's awesome. But there's always going to be this, like, fun part where it's like, hey, let's go, like, get our asses kicked, you know, like, let's, let's go try this and let's, let's, let's just see if we can do it, you know, like that. Why is that not fun anymore? Why is it not fun to just, like, try and fail and try again?

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah. you said a couple things in there. I mean, first or two things. I mean, I think there's a difference between happiness and joy, right? If you go out and you catch fish, like, okay, I'm happy I caught some fish. You know, that's not the same as figuring it out or just spending years and years and years of failing over and over and over until you get to a point where you feel pretty confident that you can go and enjoy your day on the river and catch fish where there's fish and figure out where there's fish and. And solve the problems that way versus getting lucky or, discovering something, which is certainly cool to do, but it's not the same as a lifetime of fly fishing that day on the river. And I'm certainly the last person to say that only people that have been fishing a long time can experience this thing. But I do think. I just. I think that in anything in life, like, the longer you do it, the harder it is, the more joy it brings you. And that's just from my experience in the air force. You know, one of the reasons why I was so. I'm so excited to work on art and writing is because it's hard. I can't just sit down and paint something and be awesome at it.

>> John: it's.

>> Jason Shemchuk: It's hard. And the only chance I have of getting better is continuing to do it over and over. And that's what I felt in the a ten, too, is like, the only chance I have of getting really good at this is just to keep going on the hard missions, keep flying the hard sorties, keep learning and studying this. I'm not going to get better unless I do that. And I can tell you, when I was 14 years into it, looking back, it's like, dude, this is what real joy feels like. I know that this is the result of, like, failure and failure and failure. And I might be getting too heavy here, but it's just fly fishing. But I think that's a different feeling. I think it's a different feeling than somebody even just in a, you go out and you just, like, you just can't not catch a fish, right? You go out like you're just throwing dry flies. You're catching fish. Big fish, big fish. It's a great day. Like, certainly I'm happy, right? That makes me happy. But is it the same feeling as when I go out and I'm not catching fish and then I figure something out and I start catching fish or I discover a new way? I don't think those are the same emotions for me, you know?

>> John: Yeah, absolutely.


Fly fishing really changes people's outlook on life, right? Yeah. And it really changes the way

That's. That's very well said. And that's part of the reason that I got into guiding is because, you know, happiness, joy. Like, I I wanted to, share those things with people that wanted to experience them and, and could appreciate them as, as part of, you know, the resource and, and to be able to take somebody out and give them, you know, a sense of the level of difficulty that some of this stuff takes when you don't have resources or someone to teach you or whatever the case may be. I just. I love it. I love taking people out. And sometimes I get too caught up in trying to catch fish and I forget that, you know, most of the time, people are looking around at a place that they've never seen and they're creating these memories that are hopefully going to be with them for a very long time and might even make them enthusiastic to try their hand at this stuff on their own. But, you know, it's. I just, I love it for that reason, because I've put in so much work to try to get to a point where I can help people catch fish that it's fun to share those things with people. And on top of that, you know, I've been doing this long enough where, like, I can remember when fly fishing wasn't cool at all and nobody wanted to do it. And it was. It's like, when the world is like that all you want. You want nothing more than to, like, take, all of your buddies out, you're like, oh, like, I gotta show you this. Like, it's like you, you don't understand. And they're like, oh, well, like a river runs through it type thing. Like, what's, what is it? And, you know, and it, now it's awesome because it's expanded to this, you know, area of accessibility for everybody. And it's not just like an elitist sport. It's not just for, like, old, rich white dudes or anything like that, or old people or young people or whatever. Everybody can come out and experience it. And so that need to try to get my friends fishing really kind of like, you know, drove my, my guiding career, I guess.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah.

>> John: Say, you know, you were wanting to.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Show them what, what it was, this thing that brought you happiness because. Or, this thing that brought you joy, I guess.

>> John: Yeah. When you see something cool or when you do something cool, you want to share it with everybody. And to me, fly fishing is one of those things that is just amazing to me. It doesn't mean it's gonna be amazing to everybody, but that doesn't mean I'm not gonna try to, like, share it with the world.

>> Jason Shemchuk: There's quite a few people who have been introduced to fly fishing, and usually the story is the same, like my father or my mother, my grandfather, my uncle. Somebody took me fishing when I was a kid, and I had the little zebco fly rod, and I was catching fish off the dock or blue gills or something. And then, you know, whatever, that was it. And then later in life, somebody, took me fly fishing. And it really changes the way that they approach life. You know, they really, it really adjusts their personality, their demeanor, their emotions, and, like, for a lot of people, changes their life. And, I just think that it's worth introducing people to that in case it is that for them, right? It could be skiing, could be mountain climbing, could be fill in the blank. Usually it has something to do with the outdoors, but whatever, if people aren't exposed to it, they wouldn't, you would never know, right? You would never know that this is going to be life changing sometimes. That's very obvious. Like, for people that have real problems, I've had guests on from veterans organizations or people with mental health, problems that fly fishing has really, you know, concretely changed their life in a positive way. and they didn't know about that before. So I think that that's completely valid to be able to say, like, you want to give that to people, you know, not just because it's fun for you, but this could be really meaningful for somebody and you don't know it, you know?

>> John: Yeah, absolutely. And I always say, you know, try to make room in your life for the things that you do not yet know that you're good at. And so, you know, life can get busy and people get caught up in work and so many other things as adults and even younger adults or anybody, for that matter. And so when you can give somebody a window into something that they might actually enjoy and might actually get good at and might actually have fun doing, you know, like, I mean, and who cares if you're good at it in the first place, you know? I mean, if you're good enough to catch a fish and if you like to have fun and be, be out there and in the water and, you know, that's, that's great. It's, it's not all about being good or being able to catch the most fish or anything, but I love it when people can, can find that. And I've had so many friends that, you know, I've taken out or met somebody on a guide trip, and they keep coming back, and I get to watch them, just progress and progress, and then all of a sudden, you know, they don't. They don't book guide trips anymore. And that's amazing, because I see them out there just slaying it all the time, and it's become, like, a part of their lives. And I got to be a piece of that, a small piece of, like, introducing them to something that they might have found otherwise, they might have gotten into. But I just. I love that.

>> Jason Shemchuk: yeah, I think about that a lot sometimes. You know, it could have been somebody else, but it wasn't. It was me, you know, like, they might have found that or that might have happened for them in their life without me, but it's still important to me that I was a part of it.


There's got to be some crazy experience where you tried something weird

You know, I think about that a lot with my time in the service, but I still want to ask, you about experimenting. what?

>> John: Yeah.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Is there a. Is there a story or a fish that stands out in your mind as something that really where you really went got weird? And then, I hate to get all philosophical and try to bring it back to tactics, but I was thinking about this the whole time. There's got to be some crazy experience or story that you've had where you were out there and you tried something. It doesn't have to be deep pools, either. It could be just something where you. Where you are. Like, let me try this. And it really changed your game.

>> John: Absolutely. there's this one fish, we called him Big Jim, but we called him Big Jim. other people that had seen him named him el Chapo. He, was in the Arkansas river, and, I think we were fishing in late January, and there was a big ice shelf, and we went for two days. So the first day, it was me and shells and I think one other guy, and we were fishing this deep pool, and I was really. At that time, I was really starting to, like, get into trying to deepwater nymph and trying out all these other things, and. And I was like, oh, my God, this is, like, one of the biggest fish that I've ever seen in this river. And I had hooked into this fish the first day, and I was there the entire day. Like, I would. I would fish around and always, like, find my way back to this deep hole, and I was like, okay, like, I'll go a little bit deeper. I'll go a little bit deeper. I'll see. you know, and it was one of those experimental things where I was like, okay, let's. Let's try this. And kept putting more weight on. More weight on, you know, and I kept catching fish on the flies that I had. So I didn't really change my flies or anything like that. And I finally got to a point where I knew exactly where my bugs were going with how much weight was on them, in regards to the shelf and drifting past the shelf and really hitting that sweet spot where the fish were at the bottom of the shelf. And it was probably, like, 15ft deep, the water. And I eventually hooked into this fish. And it was one of those situations where the leader was so long and the bobber was so high up, like, I could not get to the fish. And so I had Chelsea helping me net the fish. I mean, I think in the course of me fighting this fish, I, like, called her on my cell phone and I was like, oh, you have to get up here right fucking now. And she, she comes to running, dude, with her net.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Good woman.

>> John: Running with her net. And. And, like. And there was an ice shelf. So this fish was, like, walking me downstream and I was dealing with this ice shelf and trying to keep this fish from going under this ice shelf, probably sever my line. And so Chelsea's out there with her net, breaking the ice sheets.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Really?

>> John: Oh, man. And then, yeah, then we finally got to a, point where she can net it.

>> Jason Shemchuk: This also sounds very dangerous, by the way, standing on ice shelves and breaking.

>> John: Yeah, it was pretty dangerous. But it started to get past, like, the five minute mark that, you know, five to ten minute mark. And I was like, you know what? Like, I either need to.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Well, not, not dangerous for the fish. I'm talking about dangerous for Chelsea on the ice shelf.

>> John: Oh, yeah. No, it was dangerous for Chelsea, for sure. She was a trooper. But. But I was like, I don't want to kill this fish trying to net it, you know, like, I don't want to play this fish until it's freaking dead. So I was like, I, I'm gonna try to pull this fish in one more time. Otherwise, I'm just gonna snap it off and cut my losses. And Chelsea got out there with the net and. And I, hadn't yet proposed to Chelse or anything. And so I've been carrying around this ring in my pocket for almost a year and a half. And every time that I wanted to propose to her, I went. We went to all these special places, and every time, like, something would happen and she would be in, like, a bad mood. And so I was like, oh, well, now's not the time. Now's not the time. And so finally I was like, out of just special things to do, and I was like, man, if she nets this fish, I'm going to freaking marry her. I'm m going to ask her to marry.

>> Jason Shemchuk: This could be one of the greatest fly fishing stories ever told on the way to out there podcast, but keep going.

>> John: Awesome. But she hopped in and I pulled him towards the bank one more time. She netted him. We went off, you know, we were celebrating. It was great. And, you know, snapped a photo, dropped the fish back in, and I asked her to marry me right there, on the river. And it was, it was epic. I mean, we were both out there doing what we love. She was a trooper for me, you know, and that's, it's just the most memorable fish because of all these different things, you know, like, I, I was trying new things, caught. That's the biggest fish to this day that I've ever caught in that river. And it, you know, and Chelsea was there to net it. And it also took care of all of these issues that I had with trying to find the perfect place to ask her to marry me. So it was like, you know, ten birds, 1 st type thing, dude. We, you know, and she, thankfully, she said yes.


You know, I'm super stoked about that, but it was just a beautiful moment

You know, I'm super stoked about that, but it was just a beautiful moment. Yeah. And, at the time, at the time, I think that was maybe the biggest fish I'd ever caught, you know, at that point in my life, and I caught her for life as well, so.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Good story, man. I'm glad I asked that question. That's a good one.

>> John: Yeah, that's El Chapo should ask Chelsea.

>> Jason Shemchuk: That story and we'll get. Maybe I would've got the same answer or maybe a different answer.

>> John: Yeah, you might have. You might have.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah. That's an amazing story. I'm, so glad I asked that question because that was a great story. And, I love hearing that's one of my favorite things about the podcast is getting, hearing stuff like that. It's super cool. Doesn't happen all the time, but when it does, I think it's pretty special.


Chelsea writes about jealousy when her friends are fishing with her

So, you know, fishing with Chelsea is something that you do a lot. And I know we talked about this before the show as well, that fishing with friends is something that's important to you and that you really enjoy. we've talked about determination and kind of overcoming obstacles and experimenting. I wanted to read something that you wrote about fishing with friends that I thought was important, for our conversation. So you said sometimes you need to get your ass kicked all day while your friends are slaying it and having no trouble at all. This will truly test your stoke level for your friends. While you're the only one who is frustrated, replacing all your flies every 20 minutes and questioning whether or not your abundance of guiding and lack of actual fishing has finally caught up with you. you go on to talk about the fish that you caught, and it was a nice fish, and persistence paid off. You say the moral of the story is that patience is a virtue, frustration is the cousin of determination, and whiskey heals all fishing moods from inside and out. I think that's. I think that's true. I mean, it's still just fishing, and time will heal and all that, but I just wanted to get your take on when you're fishing with friends and that feeling. I mean, when they're catching fish and you're not, right? And it's just like, I've had this with many people and, I mean, I want to be happy for them. I'm happy for them and I am. But am I really? Am I really, like, what? Like, why, why am I not catching fish? It's like, I don't know. I mean, I'm just being honest, man. I'm, I'm happy for them, but I'm also, like, selfishly like, man, come on, what am I doing here? And, I don't fish with my, my friends that often, to be honest. I I'm usually by myself. but when I do, that's always something that I have to. I guess it's like maybe I'm too competitive or something, and I'm not, like, crazy, but I just, I've, I read that and I was like, okay, this guy understands. He understands what it's like. Like, what's going on? Why are they catching? what do you think about that when you're fishing with friends? And, I mean, you could, I would say, how do you overcome that? But, I mean, maybe just being a nice person is how you do that, and I just need to be a nicer person.

>> John: I try to replace my jealousy with, like, a sense of, a sense of absorption mentally, you know, if, if people are catching fish, you know, I try to pay attention to what they're doing, what's going on, you know, what. What helped them catch that fish, what's, you know, I try to take in all the details and make it a learning experience to kind of, you know, distract my brain from. From going there and being like, yeah. And, I mean, you know, no one's.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Accusing you of anything, and I'm not. I mean, I'm telling you that I have the same feelings, and I think most people, it's just natural human emotion, and I'm not proud of it. I mean, I wish that.

>> John: No, but, you know, but there's this other side where it's like, you know, sure. Why don't, like, I'll just. Let me just net that for you. Like, here, let me take a picture of you. Like, let me. Yeah. You and your fish. Like, I'll just. I'll just take a picture of you and your fish.

>> Jason Shemchuk: You caught that I did.

>> John: You cod that. I didn't. And, you know, you just have to remember that it's so much fun to see your friends succeeding, and it kind of takes away that egocentric part of your mental, where you are like, oh, well, I'm a guide. I'm this. I've been fishing for this long, and I should. I should be the one catching all the fish, and I should be, you know, because that's. That's ego. That's. That's poison, basically. So. So I. I enjoy it a lot more these days because of that aspect of, you know, humbling me if I ever feel like I am, you know, better than anyone else at fishing or. Or whatever. Because at the end of the day, you know, fish don't bite. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? You know? Like, if they. If they don't bite for you, then they don't bite for you. And you gotta be stoked for your friends, because typically they aren't on the river as much as we are, and typically, they're not, you know, out there as much as we'd like to think that we are.

>> Jason Shemchuk: No, that's a really good point. I mean, usually, if I'm fishing with my dad or my brother or something, they're not on the river as much as me. And that's a great reminder. Like, dude, it's much easier to be happy when you have that context. And then the other thing I'll say is, or it's easier to be happy for them when you have that context is like, dude, not only are you being an ass, but it's, like, super selfish of you to have that feeling when you're out here more often than they are and you're still being an ass about it. That usually humbles me.

>> John: no, exactly.

>> Jason Shemchuk: I used to think the better I got at fishing, it would bother me less. But that's not the case. The feeling is still there. I have to deal with it. I've found other ways of dealing with it I thought would be replaced by just being better at fishing, but that is not, that's not the solution. So if you're out there listening and you think, well, once I get good at fishing, I'm not going to have that feeling anymore.

>> John: Plus, you, you got it. You got to choose your friends wisely, too. I mean, that's true. Anyone that I enjoy fishing with, we, you know, it's. We screw around with each other. And, you know, if someone's in a nice hole or if, like, like Chelsea, for instance, if she's, like, slaying it in a spot, like, I'll come over and I'll just, like, cast over her and stuff, and I'll be like, oh, I'm coming in. I'm coming in, you know, and, like, a lot of my friends will do the same thing. And I. That's, that's a part that I love about it, is the camaraderie, you know, where it's like everyone is just having a good time and you can't take it so seriously, and you kind of have to, like, mess around every now and then and just kind of, you know, take it as it comes. And what's funny about that, particularly, particular time, is that, you know, everyone was catching all these fish, and they were great fish. You know, there's, there's no, you know, there's no bad fish to catch, right? So everyone's catching these fish, and I'm trying my best to be super happy and not, and not deflect my frustration for myself onto them while I'm, while I'm fishing. And so they're catching all these fish, and some of them are, like, 1820 inches. And it's great.


Jace: I think humor is a big part of fly fishing

It's awesome to see. And then I'm not catching any fish, but then I catch that fish.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah.

>> John: And that one I think we taped out at, like, 31 or something.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Wow.

>> John: And it was huge. But the best part about that was that immediately, once that fish got netted, I saw a complete reversal. So, like, everyone had been catching fish, and then I look around and everyone's like, everyone's happy because I had a bad day. But then they're also like, oh, well, you know, like, I want that fish. So, ah, you know, it goes in a full circle all the time. And, you know, the. And that's, that's also, a cool part about the fly fishing community is, you know, if. If you're. You know, there's always going to be the. The community, but if your specific social community, you know, your. Your little circle of people that you fish with, people that you talk to, people that are around you, if you're constantly lifting each other up, giving each other inspiration and showing each other new things and sharing these experiences with each other, it's. It's amazing. There's. There's no bad days.

>> Jason Shemchuk: No bad days.

>> John: No bad days.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah, I, The story that comes to mind for me is I was fishing with my brother on the bighorn, and it was a great day. It was just a great day of fishing. It had been a great, like, few days of fishing. And then we go out this one day, and it's a good day, and then all of a sudden, I just cannot land a fish. Like, I'm still catching fish, but I just can't land them. And my brother's just crushing, like, you know, no big deal. Like, why can't you catch up? you know, must not be. Must not be tying those knots good. You know, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe wet your knots when you tie them. Jace. You know, like, I, think humor. I guess my point is, like, you brought it up, too. Humor is a thing that I think gets lost sometimes in fishing and fly fishing. And it's easy to do when you're getting in the weeds and tactical, which is a big part of why I like to fly fish. But it's fun. And there's a lot of funny stuff that happens on the river. And I think your friends catching more fish than you are, you catching more fish than them is part of that fun? I think it can be, as long as you don't take yourself too seriously. So.

>> John: And your. Your guilt should play a significant part in it, too, you know? Like, I love the guilt. Like, when everybody, like, if you're catching a bunch of fish and no one else is, like, eventually, like, you got to hit a point where you stop and you're like, okay. Like, you get in here and, like. And then you kind of put your guide hat back on. You're like, okay, so this is what I'm doing.

>> Jason Shemchuk: And, like, even the guilt is funny. Like, the fact that I'm feeling the guilt, if I'm aware of it, and I'm like, dude, are you seriously, like, come on. Yeah, yeah.

>> John: And you feel the guilt, and you're like, I don't. I don't deserve this. Like my friends, they need to be having fun and, you know, but that's great. That just shows that you care for, you know, your people and, and that's, it brings me full circle to wanting everybody to experience that as best they can. And it's, it's a beautiful thing.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Yeah, sure is fly fishing. Cool thing, cool thing to do. That's why we have the podcast talk about fly fishing, folks, we've been talking a while, we covered some good ground here. We're not going to get to the San Juan in the south Platte. That's okay, that would be for another time. But I think we, we covered a lot of ground and I'm excited about stuff we talked about with experimenting and fishing deep pools. So I appreciate you sharing all that stuff.


How can people find out more about you? How can people schedule a guided trip

Before I ask you my last question, John, how can people find out more about you? How can people maybe schedule a guided trip or if there's anything you're excited about coming up that you want people.

>> John: To know about, you can schedule a guided trip through Colorado trout hunters. Danny Frank, one of my best friends, he runs the outfit and we have a lot of different water that we guide on. I love running trips. we have a good time out there. That's what it's all about. you can find me on Instagram. Fly messenger is my Instagram handle. I'm excited to get out and fish and just have some more fun and, and I'm excited about things like these and being able to talk with anyone about fishing. Always.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Alright, we'll link to that in the show notes and people can find out more about you, or reach out or say hi and schedule a guided trip, maybe.


What would you tell yourself to help you progress as a fly fisher

Last question, if you could go back to when you first started fly fishing and give yourself two pieces of advice, one more tactical, one more philosophical, what would you tell yourself to help you progress as a fly fisher?

>> John: That's a tough one. I think as far as tactical goes, you know, nymph fishing is probably the biggest thing tactically that I would, I would tell myself, just because it requires a lot, right, it requires multiple knots, it requires, you know, reading the water. It opens up a perspective on fishing in the river and, you know, that's of great value to somebody that's just getting into fly fishing or trying to catch fish and be a part of the party, you know? because I started with streamers and eventually dry flies and then finally nymphing and I feel like I could have done that completely in reverse. So just, just from the success perspective. And I think that that would have helped, a little bit as far as philosophically. If there was something that I could tell myself, it would be, you know, don't sweat the petty things, pet the sweaty things, and just don't take it too seriously. I mean, you know, I think that, you know, and I hate to, I'd hate to go there, but I think that kind of the social media aspect of it, you know, we are dealing with a resource, we are dealing with wild animals where we're dealing with a lot when it comes to a lot of responsibility, when it comes to a natural resource. And so when you get, you know, and I'm guilty of getting caught up in, you know, there were times where I would have a big fish on, and it would come through my brain. I'd be like, oh, my God, I'm gonna get such a good picture of this one, and then I'm gonna, you know, post it on Instagram or something. And, you know, don't do it for recognition. Do it because you love it. And that's. I think that's a big philosophical part of it for me. I've kind of, like, laid off of my social media quite a bit, and, you know, there's a lot of negative space there. There's a lot of positive space there. There's a lot of great people that you can meet and a lot of cool things that you can learn and you can see. But as I move forward, I I can't help but feel, you know, and, of course, I'm. I'm part of the problem. I've been part of the problem, and I'm. I own that, you know, as far as, as that stuff goes. But I just think that if you do it for the right reasons and you don't do it just for recognition or free gear or notoriety on a social, media platform, that, if the worst happened, could disappear tomorrow and nobody would know who you are anymore. That's, a big, important part, to just fish for the right reasons and fish for yourself, and the rest will come naturally. And I just think that's a big part of it.

>> Jason Shemchuk: I think that's wise. Do it for the right reasons. Don't do it for the Grammy.

>> John: No, no. Or do it for the gram. But, you know, don't, don't just,

>> Jason Shemchuk: You have funny stuff on there, though, I will tell you. Like, they have some very funny. I didn't get to any of those quotes, but.

>> John: And that's, I just try to, I just try to have fun now, you know? I mean, I just want to share the fun times with people. I don't want to have the biggest fish. I don't want to be the coolest person on Instagram anymore. I don't want people to recognize me at the fly fishing show. I don't want, you know, yeah, I don't want any of that stuff. I just want to have fun, and I want to work guiding and take people out and just have a blast. And anything else that happens is icing on the cake.

>> Jason Shemchuk: I like it. I'm happy that you've come to that, place, man. You sound like you're really happy with where you're at and with fly fishing. And congratulations to you and Chelsea, too. I think that's really cool.

>> John: Oh, man. Thank you.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Thanks for being on the show. I had a great time talking with you. This was awesome. And I really am, excited about the conversation and sharing it with people, and I think people will learn a lot and help them get outside their comfort zone on the river and stuff. So I appreciate it, man. Thanks for being on the podcast.

>> John: I really appreciate you having me out, and I look forward to, you know, listening to all your podcasts and catching up and. And, you know, maybe one of these days when you're back in Colorado, we can hit the river.

>> Jason Shemchuk: Thanks for listening to the Wade out there fly fishing podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories, and artwork, check out my blog, an online gallery@wadeoutthere.com if you want to make Wade out there a part of your own fly fishing journey, please subscribe and share. Until next time, wait out there.