WOT 129: Norm Maktima Part 1. Connection, Mindfulness, and Observation.

In this episode we Wadeouthere with Norm Maktima from Rio Rancho, New Mexico.  Norm grew up fly fishing on his local river after school and in the summers.  At seventeen his father signed him up for an outfitter program in Montana, on the Clark Fork River.  When he came back, he had a job at the local fly shop, and it didn’t take long for him to start guiding and competing in fly fishing. 

In part one of our discussion, Norm describes how his indigenous heritage binds him to the land and to fly fishing, the importance of mindfulness, and the specific observations he makes that help him bring more trout to the net.

To learn more about how Norm tactically approaches his home waters of Northern New Mexico, check out his YouTube channel:
N Maktima Fly Fishing - YouTube

To schedule a guided trip with Norm, reach out at:
High Desert Angler.com

For more fly fishing stories, lessons learned, and artwork check out my blog and online gallery at Wadeoutthere.com

Visit WadeOutThere.com/art for 10% off your first original painting or limited edition print from show host and artist Jason Shemchuk

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Transcript

Jason 0:01

In this episode, we wait out there with Norm Moktima from Rio Rancho, New Mexico. Norm grew up fly fishing on his local river after school and in the summer. So at 17, his father signed him up for an outfitter program in Montana on the Clark Fork River. When he came back, he had a job at the local fly shop, and it didn't take long for him to start guiding and competing in fly fishing. In part one of our discussion, Norm describes how his indigenous heritage binds him to the land and to fly fishing, the importance of mindfulness, and the specific observations he makes that help bring more trout to the net. Welcome to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Shevchuk. At Wade Out There, we believe fly fishing is special, but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There. Welcome, Norm. Thanks for being on the Wade Out There podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

No problem, Jason. Thanks for inviting me on.

Jason 1:23

Yeah. I'm excited to talk to you. Zach Vandehai is how I found out about you. He mentioned uh when I talked to him that you would be somebody interesting to talk to. And then I saw that you're also in the competition world uh of a lot more experience than Zach probably. But I wonder if he he said that his first competition was a lake uh fishery, and I didn't know if you were involved with that or if he met you through that, or did you meet him through the competition world?

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Uh yeah, we we connected through the comp world, and it's interesting because you know I I think I first really recognized him or or got reconnected with him was through his YouTube channel, um Flying Ties, I think is what it was. And I mean, he hasn't done them in a while, which sucks because they were really good videos. I really like watching his his channel. But yeah, they were pretty good videos. They they were. But yeah, Zach, um it's funny. He's just plugging me in all these all these spots, and uh, so it's good to see him do his thing and hear hear his his uh rendition on on uh on on his perspective. So but uh yeah, he's like my he's like my agent out there, you know. He keeps plugging me in.

Jason 2:34

I know. I talked to you before the show started about the you were on the wet fly swing podcast, which is a really good one too.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Right, right. Yeah, but it's Zach. I asked you about that.

Jason 2:43

He's like oh yeah, that was Zach. Zach hooked me up there. So yeah, maybe you should hire him as your agent so he can get you out there. Because I must say, you're you're not out there as much as a lot of other folks that I see in the fly fishing world and social media and stuff, and that's another reason why I'm I'm super excited to talk to you because in my experience, when you're good, you don't have to tell everybody you're good. You just you just be good.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

I'm down with flying on the radar, dude. Uh you know, that's how the fish don't know I'm coming.

Jason 3:13

That's right. Well, we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk about how you sneak up on them and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Right, yeah.

Jason 3:18

But so you fished competition in all different types of waters, lakes, streams, uh rivers, big water, small water. Is there a type of uh water that you prefer to fish that than others, or does that change whether you're doing competition or or just uh going out on the day for yourself or if you're getting uh I don't really have a preference necessarily, although I will say that really tight, small, brushy creeks, not a fan of that necessarily.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

I know a lot of people, you know, especially you know, me working in the fly shop, you know, that's all they want to fish, and I'm like, honestly, I really can't help you there, you know, because I tend to avoid those little tiny tangle uh fly eating creeks.

unknown 4:02

Why?

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Because they eat your flies? Exactly. We have this in common. Right, we already have this in common, but I mean I'll do it sometimes. There's a few streams out here that you know they produce some decent fish, and so I'll go, I'll go um, you know, sacrifice some flies here and there, but you know, it's not something that I typically go out of my way to to go venture on. But flies costs money. Yeah, exactly. Or time on the vice, you know, some always tie and flies, and I'm like, where I just tied a bunch of these and where did they go? So uh no, I don't really have a preference necessarily, although you know, I I I do like to vary it up as much as I can. So if I'm hitting uh this type of water or even guiding on it uh for a number of days, you know, it's kind of nice to switch it up and hit something different. Um, but even at the same time, you know, your seasons, uh, I look forward to different parts of the year because you know, I can go and fish these uh other waters that normally don't fish that well prior, you know, or you know, at the given time I'm I'm working on these other pieces of water.

Jason 5:10

So well, there's a lot of water down by you. You're in New Mexico, right? Uh in the Alp Kurke area. And have you is that where fly fishing started for you, or did you uh kind of evolve into that area? I know that you're you grew up in on the Pecos River, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Yeah, so the Pecos definitely um you know comprised a huge percentage of my fishing background. So growing up in Pecos, the Pecos was 10, 15 minutes from me. And so as a kid, um, either in the summer or even during the school year, um, you know, I'd especially for when I was in in school, your your spring and fall time frame, I'd get home, try and just crank out my homework, and obviously had a little bit longer days back uh, you know, during those periods uh with time changes and whatnot. So, you know, get that done, load up the vehicle, and me and my dad would, you know, hustle down to the river and you know, at least get a couple hours, uh at least until it got dark. So, you know, we'd fish until dark and then come home after that. And in the summertime, my dad would just drop me off on the river and you know, be telling me he'd come back later in the day and either he'd just pick me up and go home, or he'd just stick around and fish till it got dark again, you know. So I'd spent a lot of time on the water uh back in the day. Just, you know, those are the days where you could just you know, just leave me and I'd be, you know, can't do that really anymore.

Jason 6:36

Yeah, yeah. That's uh sounds like a special man for two reasons. One, I you're you're somewhat unique from some of my other guests because you come back from school and knock out that homework real fast.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

I was a brainy kid, man.

Jason 6:49

So that's good. Your dad probably had something to do with that. Was your dad an influence in that?

SPEAKER_02 6:54

Oh, for sure. I mean, it was always, you know, put in the work, put in the effort, uh, and then you know, you get the reward in the end, you know. So um that's just how I grew up. Just get that homework done and then get out there. So that that was that was the incentive.

Jason 7:11

Yeah, and then in the summertime you didn't didn't have to worry about that, so then he would drop you off. Was it fly fishing?

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Uh well, so I started fly fishing uh when I was seven, and actually how that all started was uh a family trip to Yellowstone, and my dad basically got me my first fly rod on that trip. I had attempted it before or prior, uh, but just you know, at six years old, just wielding a nine-foot fly rod wasn't all that easy, so a lot of tangles, a lot of frustration on my dad's end. So I would have when uh you know when I turned seven, then he just kind of like he knew I loved it. I I grew up fishing, uh camping, hunting, and and uh but uh yeah, I think when I was seven, he was just like, all right, you know, you're you can you can do it. I had I had fairly decent coordination as a kid. So yeah, he got me my first fly rod and it was game over at that point. So uh but yeah, Yellowstone starting when I was seven and then just you know uh never gave it up.

Jason 8:20

I think it's good that he got you the he went straight to the nine foot. That's what I'd do with my son. But I'm also frustrated with him sometimes. But you know, I just got to remind myself that you know this is we're just I'm just trying to plant seeds here, just planting seeds.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Exactly, exactly. It was interesting because I I remember this as a kid, you know, I get a tangle, and I'm a very patient person, and I've only realized this because I get a lot of clients who tell me I'm super patient, but I think it all developed when when uh I was learning how to fly fish, I get these tangles, and I just sit on the bank and just I'm very like puzzle-minded oriented, so I would just take the time to undo the tangle, and my dad just kept, you know, he would be watching me and just say, Cut it. And I because I'd be sitting there for you know 10, 20 minutes, just you know, undoing a tangle, but I you know, it was kind of fun, like figuring out how to do this tangle, and my dad would just like just cut it, you know, just retide. I'm like, I got it, got it. So he would just get frustrated and walk away.

Jason 9:22

I'm almost there, I'm almost there. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

So, you know, if your kids are just messing with the tangle, like let them let them do it.

Jason 9:28

That's good advice. That's good advice.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

It it builds a little bit of patience.

Jason 9:32

Do you carry that over now that you're guiding and fishing on your own? Do you still do you do you master it so you can get them out quick, or did you transition to cutting them off?

SPEAKER_02 9:41

No, I'm pretty quick at ondoing tangles. Some people will look at it and be like, oh, that's that's horrible. You know, like I'm like, just like I got some moves here, I got some maneuvers, I can do this. Now it's weird because I can't figure out a Rubik's Cube to save my life. You know, and well, you say you like puzzles. Right, exactly. But uh a a tangled mess, it depends. If it's tightened up too tight, then I might just cut and retie because I'm I'm uh it's a lot faster if I can do that in some of those situations.

Jason 10:13

What are some of your moves? What are some of your maneuvers? What are some tips that you could give people listening that that don't have the experience you have?

SPEAKER_02 10:20

For your tangles is stop moving, never try to shake it out. If it tangles, just stop. Grab it. Uh if it's loose, keep it loose, keep the tangle loose. If it's somewhat tight, uh you can use your hook points. If you have multiple flies or two flies on there, use the the two hook points to to tease it apart and uh loosen it all up and then go from there. So and if you have to cut, try to just cut one fly off, and you know that that saves a little bit of time and and re-rigging in the end. So but if it does tighten up, go ahead and cut.

Jason 10:55

Okay, tight cut. I find also that uh it's not as much of a knot sometimes, especially like when I'm fishing with split shot or indicators, it's wrapped, like things are wrapped around each other. Right. So I'm just like, okay, I gotta grab this piece of split shot and just gonna pick it up and move it over. First, it's it looks like a knot that I have to untangle.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Right, and sometimes, yeah, it's just twisted. Just twisted up a twist, exactly from my from my awesome casting. Right, yeah.

Jason 11:26

Uh okay, fair enough. Um, and so you're fishing, you know, you got the fly ride, your dad's dropping you off at the river, and now you're fly fishing, and are you doing that all the time growing up? And when did you ever think that it was gonna be something that would be a professional endeavor or you're gonna take into adulthood type of thing?

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Uh not really, but what ended up happening was um so 1997 was a big year. I'll put it that way. I guess it's a landmark year in in my history because that summer my dad signed me up for this outfitter program in Montana, which was a two-part program. Uh, the first part was uh basically hunting, you know, outfitters, uh doing backcountry horses, back uh drop camps, that sort of thing. And and uh so it did that and actually, you know, immediately realized I did not want to do that as as well. Okay, you're like, nope, I don't like that. Okay. Exactly. And then the second part was a fly uh fly fishing guide program. Um so again in Montana, out of St. Regis on the Clarks Fork, and uh big shout out to Don Dale and Clarksfork Outfitters. He's he was the the man who you know got me you know thinking about uh fly fishing on a different level.

Jason 12:49

And you had been fly fishing a lot leading up to this, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Yeah, so you know, um up until that point, you know, I spent a lot of time in High Desert Angler. That was that was the fly shop I grew up in. You know, my dad would go and either get flies, fly time material, tip it, you know, just the the the usual stuff. Leaders, I'm a leader killer, leaders, exactly. And so that was that was right, that was the shop I grew up in. And so once I did the flight uh the guide training uh program, the owner at High Desert Angler, she knew my dad told her, and uh Jan Crawford is her name, and she was like, when he gets back, tell him to stop by the shop, I have a job for him. So uh what age are you? I was 17. So you know, I was stuffing, you know, fly tying material bags and cutting up material, uh stocking flies, you know, just shop stuff. And then not too long after, I actually started guiding. Um they needed help on a group trip and nobody else is available to to help. And so she just asked if I was willing to give it a shot. I said, yeah, and it it after that I was on the guide roster.

Jason 14:04

Why do you think your dad set you up with that trip? It seems like a so I I spent summers in Montana in high school as a kid. Um at n but it wasn't formal. I was on a cattle ranch out in Absorkey, Montana, okay, which is um kind of over by Red Lodge, kinda. No, okay. Um we were just goofing around on the river and uh I've been up in the mountains and hunting and stuff, but nothing formal like that. Like my dad, my dad did kind of I don't know, I think he was just trying to sh teach me adventure or give me this opportunity to have this adventure.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Yeah, my parents have always pushed me to expand my my horizons, my my frame of thought, my experiences. Um so I did a lot of summer camps, uh either, you know, educational or uh outdoorsy, but it was always you know never being idle, always doing something. Um and so I don't even know how we found out about this this guide program. I you know, I he he always knew that I was uh always interested in in fishing and hunting. I mean, you know, when it was dark, we would watch the outdoor channel and watch all these hunting and fishing shows.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

And yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

He might he must have seen it on on that or something, you know. And and I just kind of just was like, hey, let me just see if they got an opening for for Norm. So I don't know. You know, I I never really asked him, like, you know, what made you think I wanted to do that? I he didn't care, he just was like, you're gonna do it because it's something for you to do in the summer.

Jason 15:42

So okay, that's fair enough. So it's more of a one of a bunch of things that he was exposing you to versus a deliberate, like, I want my son to be a guide, or you know, he just saw your interest in the outdoors. And I guess just like we expose our kids to lots of different things, right? Sports or music or hiking, or and then they kind of show you what they what they like.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Yeah, uh whether the what their interest is, you know, and how you know where it goes from there, but it it's just another opportunity and and a pathway that was given to me or or opened up to me, and I just decided to keep walking down that that path.

Jason 16:21

I perceive that the connection to the outdoors uh runs very deep with you, and it's part of you know your family, and you you've spent m all your life kind of in the outdoors. And so I wanted to ask you kind of if if if it's fly fishing or the outdoors that kind of connects you to that one or the other, or is is fly fishing a way for you to maintain connected? And I thought I would if if I can read a quote is that is that okay? I got a quote that you that you have here and you say I have come to realize that our Pueblo people and culture have always adapted to a changing world. Our culture and people face that today, but we will continue and adapt. This morning I celebrated with a run, remembering songs, listening to the birds, looking at wildlife and flowers, absorbing all the beauty around, and thanking those around us and before us for the sacrifices and prayers. And so I said that. You said that, dude. I was feeling it.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

I was feeling it that day.

Jason 17:27

Well, thank you. Thank you for that was a good thank you for making me feel good about picking that one out because you know I was checking out, and like we said at the beginning, you're not out there that much, you know. And it's like here I caught some fish or here I did this, and but when I saw that, I realized okay, this is uh you know, very special part of your life. And uh that connection is you know more than just going fly fishing or being in the mountains. And uh I guess my question is you know, uh do you find that fly fishing keeps you in touch with that part of yourself? And then also do you find that I mean we're gonna talk about adaptability and change later on, and um so I thought that that was uh coincidental or you unique as well that you that you talk about that and then it's something that you're kind of passionate about as well. It's like when I'm on the river, I'm being I want to adapt and change.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

It's interesting, uh or not interesting, it it it's it's just how I grew up. Um you know, being of of of Pueblo descent, so my mom's from San Felipe Pueblo, or Cachia is how we call it in our language, and my dad, he's from Laguna, Coeik, and uh half Hopi as well. So growing up, I was always again, it was it was really three things that were big in my life: family and culture, education, and then outdoors, fly fishing. They all tied together. Um, and really because of the family cultural aspect uh with the within our public culture, the the environment is completely tied into the culture because the culture had to adapt as as I had mentioned in your quote there. Our our we as a people had to evolve to accommodate our situation in whatever environment we found ourselves in. And growing up in the Southwest, or you know, our our people evolving in the Southwest, we had to evolve with a lot of this, a lot of things we're seeing right now, you know, uh climate change, drought, uh, flooding, uh, you know, fires. Um and uh it is it's one of those things that um you know, growing up, having my family, you know, push us in learning our culture and being a part of our culture, it helps now that I am older to understand what's actually going on in the environment. Because this has all been it's it's within our our stories and our history, it's all there. It's it it again, you know, it's it's it's knowing your history to know where you're at and where you're going from here on forward. Um, and that's part of it. Um and at the same time, you know, with my education, uh, I have a degree in environmental studies biology, it really just tied all the loose ends together. Um and which is great now because I'm seeing more and more as far as what we call indigenous knowledge, um, indigenous um stewards of the land and that sort of and and and those folks that are able to tie our indigenous knowledge to Western knowledge. Um it wasn't that we didn't know what was going on, we just had a different way of describing what was going on, and a lot of it was through stories, and that's how we understood the world because we didn't have the specific terms like you see in science or anything like that, you know. So um now that we're able to to bridge those two together, it it just fundamentally makes more sense uh of what's happening, and so that you know, um my Pueblo background pretty much drove and inspired me to understand more what's what's happening, and as a fly fisher, you know, um it's you take all of these uh aspects into account as far as the ecology of fly fishing. I'll just put it that way, because you have all these components that are tied together that that you have to basically understand if you want to become a good angler, a good steward of the river, or you know. of the of the land in a sense uh to become a teacher and you know and that's all tied together so it's uh yeah it's it's it's it's broad uh there's there's a l a lot of background um and it's all because of of you know the connection my Pueblo people have to this land um and and obviously to the to the value of water in general um you know without water obviously nothing survives for the most part yeah well I think that I can't help but perceive that that kind of understanding and that kind of connection has got to help you in fly fishing.

Jason 24:58

I mean it's gotta help you I mean you say you're a patient man like and and have that education kind of background and just imagine how much better I do on the river. Not just better, but just how much more I enjoy myself when I'm on the river and I am observing. People say observe all the time. That's kind of my pet peeve like the observer. Because people say oh just go out and observe and then it's hard to put hard to pin them down on what to observe or what they're doing. But I think just being present on the river and there you go present. Yeah you know it's not like okay I'm gonna observe the birds are doing this so that must there must be flies and you know it's I there's some of that but being present is really what helps me and it feel I feel like you have a really I feel like you have a an ability to be present out there.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

Yeah and growing up you know my my parents they'd always uh tell us to to slow down um you know to to take time to really think things through and really what it is is being mindful um and not mindful um in one manner or another it's being mindful of all things uh you know how it affects other people how it's gonna affect you know your your environment whether you know even if it's cleaning up you know clean up your mess uh don't leave things you know um but also you know when you move um you know don't rush or you know you knock things over or you know there's there's all it was always just instilled that being mindful always just taking in your surrounding and just observing uh again growing up uh uh yeah your your your word uh growing up you know driving down the road my dad was you know we're always looking for deer elk uh yeah birds of prey all that stuff you know so it was like my field of view wasn't just the road going down and it it it it's hilarious because now like when I'm driving with my fiance or friends or or you know even my clients uh if they're riding with me you know I'm like oh there's do you see the deer over there do you see the turkeys over there uh do you see that you know and they're like how do you see these things like I I just grew up just looking out my peripheral all the time you know or just head on a swivel type thing so again uh mindfulness being present being in the moment absorbing everything you know all around you but you know and again uh that comes into play too as a as an angler because you know you're you're constantly using all your senses to figure out what you need to do in the given moment. Yeah um you know you hear the wind start moving up the canyon through the trees you're like oh I gotta you know start powering up on my cast.

Jason 27:53

Well it's affecting the land it's affecting it's affecting everything around you. I think I just got back from an elk hunt and the when you're talking about being present and being aware of your surroundings and stuff, you know, I'm up here and we were going around this these elk went over a a uh kind of like a hill and it was in a saddle we figured they were on the saddle on the other side. So we you know we moved over there pretty quick and got up to the we went up about two thirds up the hill and we were starting to go around, you know, and we got the wind with us and stuff but we're going around and I don't we never really slowed down. You know we just we were going fast to get there because we didn't want them to move and and then we started going around really fast. And by the time and we did we did see them but they were on the other side of the draw and they were pretty they were too far away at that point. But based on I mean I know that we had walked cl close enough because of where they were and where we had been and the route that we took and the route the where they were moving.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

I'm like ah man if we had slowed down like I know that if we had slowed down and just chilled out and just gone much slower around that knob we would have we would have had better o a better shot yeah might have not bumped him or yeah oh no I'd I same thing with me when I hunt so you know my dad he's he loves fly fishing uh but he's definitely a a much better hunter and um was he going with you fly fishing as a kid like is he a fly fishing mentor for you and he taught you he is actually he my dad taught himself how to fly fish um in the 70s early 80s um actually so uh he was going to school at uh northern Arizona University on Flagstaff and you know he lived a lot of his life in Holebrook and and Winslow area and flag obviously being in school there so they he would go fish Lee's ferry uh uh below Glen Canyon Dam. Okay yeah and uh he was you know basically one of the few people that would fly fish up there and um so he taught himself how to do it and um so my dad's an artist he's a he's a uh a metalsmith uh does mixed jewelry uh you know so he he's he's in the art realm and so for him to take on you know something like fly fishing you know wasn't wasn't too too drastic of a of a learning career for him you know so he he he got into it pretty pretty quick and easy but uh so he's the one who influenced me into fly fishing obviously you know we'd go yeah as a kid you know either uh you know just run conventional gear or you know again fly fishing up until I was until I made it onto the junior world team um you know I would go back and forth yeah and then once I got into the the uh US youth team then then it was just fly fishing pretty much from there on but no he's the one who got me into it. He's the one to blame for for all this mess.

Jason 31:01

No I thank him I'm thankful I'm grateful for him to to have done that. I want to get back to you I want to talk a little bit about your competition uh and how that affected kind of what we're gonna discuss about adaptability change but I'm gonna put you on the spot I told you I told you I have a pet thief with the observing okay so what is it? Like tell me the things that you're observing when you're when you're out there and you're you know or when I'm out there or when someone else is out there and they're like okay you know Norm and Jason said I need to be present I need to be mindful I'm here take a couple deep breaths like what are things that they can observe some probably more obvious than others but I'm really interested in your opinion what are some of the things that they can be mindful of that's gonna help them you know not just have a good day on the river but maybe catch some more fish you know or we're trying to catch fish right so oh no 100% I mean yeah it's that's one interesting thing that people always like no I don't mind you know just being out there and I'm like you know everybody's goal when they go fly fishing obviously is to catch a fish.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Yeah so and it makes it makes the day that much more it's fun it's exciting if you catch a fish yeah correct right to increase that I I guess one thing that I I can or how I can break it down is you know let's talk about competition we get 30 minutes before our session starts to look at our beat and to set up our rods and do all this stuff so I can kind of break down like how what I would do when I get to my my beat. That's cool. It's like built into it. It's like no no this is this is your time exactly it's almost like they force you to do it. Right. So first and foremost you know when I get to the when I get down to the water you know if I'm walking down the beat or up the beat or whatever I I I look at the section and the water type that I have available to me. So whether it be a pull uh riffles pocket water runs you know how deep are the edges you know would fish be holding tight to the banks is there tree canopy or you know is it pretty wide open meadow type stuff and and a lot of times you know those those factors will tell you like how you how you would be best to set up um you know shallow flat water probably best to run a dry fly you know if if you have some hatches happening uh if they're deeper pools suspension type rigs streamers would be another good one uh if you're going into riffles uh you know nymphing techniques would be uh the way to go with that um pocket water could be a mix of mix of everything at that point so uh and then at the same time you know uh when you when you get to your your beat you see what water type you have or you get to where you're fishing you see what water type you have uh what does your clarity look like um you know that'll determine what type of fly or patterns you'll be you'll be utilizing uh if it's really clear a lot of times you know going with more uh slimmer profile um I would say you know quotation mark or uh match the hatch type flies um you know rather than attractor patterns or really bright you know hot spots or that sort of thing but again you know it depends on the behavior of the fish and and and how you know how selective they can be in those sections. Right. So you know uh if it's muddy you know then you go with the bigger brighter stuff. Brighter or just bigger or both you know you know so if if it depends on on how how murky the water is if you have so if it's like anything around 10 inches of visibility you know then I may stay you know with more uh just hot spots than anything not worry about going real big but if it's really off color you know then you're throwing stuff like worm patterns patch rubber legs stuff with profile uh dead drifting streamers and why is that uh it's because they can see it a lot better you know you have that uh impression uh of of a food source in front of them um but then you're slowing down you know you're working the water much more thoroughly so you know clarity can determine your flight choice and then from there then you know obviously you're gonna be looking around or or just if bugs are flying around uh as you're walking through vegetation or hoppers popping out or you know you hit a branch or cat is flying out of the bushes you know things like that that's that's being in the moment uh and then on top of that you know what's your yeah so that's your riverside ecology you know is it meadows is it uh pine trees is it willow bush bushes that sort of thing you know those can kind of determine what other insects would be available to okay so vegetation and then obviously you know is it cloudy is it sunny that was my next question yeah how do I need to approach you know if it's bright and sunny uh you may need to hang back and make longer casts you know keep a lower profile slow down uh considerably you know your movement in in sunlight can can give your presence away and and trigger fish to be a lot more wary and if it's cloudy a lot of times then you know you're able to to get move in a little closer or do other things that that you know a bright sunny uh day might not allow you to do and uh again your water type will also determine how you're able to move through water you know flat calmer water obviously you've got to be more stealthy uh riffle pocket water that that's deeper water you can be a little you can get away with a little bit more you can move a little bit quicker make a little bit more movement okay get closer to your target too and uh you know that allows you for better accuracy obviously obviously and better presentation if you're able to get closer to the fish versus having to hang back so you know all those things and factors so you're trying to get as close as you can without getting too close and there's a balance there right where there is there is you know so and and obviously as you fish uh I try to stay a little bit further back and then I can kind of feel how these fish are responding. Yeah most times if you're yeah if you're moving slow enough you know fish kind of they know you're there or they're aware of your presence but they're not threatened you know so okay um that's that's one thing when you see me fish is and when I move through the water is I try to move as smoothly as possible you know granted that the rocks don't roll on you or it's not split you know exactly so those those those things kind of kind of influence how your approach is is going to be in the water.

Jason 37:56

Okay. What about I got a I got some more questions here. What about what about water level like how high or low it is how does that do you pay attention to that much and how does that kind of affect your strategy? So water's really high or low I mean based on normal like do you go into it knowing okay this is normal and so my baseline normal CFS or flow or whatever or even if you don't if you just know the river is like this is about how high the river normally is then as it moves up and down now what kind of what does that kind of tell you about how you're gonna make an adjustment?

SPEAKER_02 38:33

At that point, well it depends on on what caused the water level to change um if you have you know a rainstorm that or snow melt you know that really bumped it up and you have a lot of debris or it's really murky uh those two are defin they influence the river separately or differently usually a rainstorm will get it really murky and off color. And so you know again fly choice is is big there go with bigger patterns uh worm patterns are always good and after a rainstorm uh if it's snow melt uh usually it's a little more gradual uh and especially if it's the back end of snow melt um you usually have high water but it's clear a lot of the debris has already moved through and uh so what that allows you to do is just run bigger in size you know obviously you're dealing with velocity you're dealing with more flow push uh from the river so getting down to that that uh lower layer uh of the water column uh where the fish are holding you know that's the trick is is how do you get down there and a lot of times you know it's not small or adding you know a lot of weight to small patterns it's just going bigger overall um I fish you know primarily tunks and beaded flies so you know I might be running size 12s and uh with four mil beads just to get down in some of those areas or something along stone fly patterns uh a little more lead wrap tied in to help help that uh that sink rate better or just to keep it tied to the bottom slowing down your drift overall um so so that's if the water levels come up now if the water level dropped um and typically you know that could be your uh middle summer late summer early fall time frame uh you're looking at temperature could be one big factor you know so is it if it's a summer situation where you don't have a lot of rainfall the water levels have come down you know you might be subject to just fishing in the morning you know hood owl hours uh you know as the day progresses the water warms up it heats up the fish just shut down they don't want to and it's just not good for them in any way to overexert themselves when when you're fighting them in those conditions. So sticking to early morning or you know your dusk twilight timeframe um where the temperatures are cooler one that affects two your your aquatic insects as well they're gonna start moving around a little bit more in those situations. But if it's later in the fall where your temperatures are optimal then you're looking at actually uh a different time frame in the hatch schedule too so a lot of times your major hatches have come and gone you know your bigger flies uh you may still be holding on to some betas hatches I know down here right now we're seeing a lot of bluing olives this is the last push of of them and then we're gonna start transitioning into mid-time basically so the water's low the water's clear you're running a lot of smaller patterns they may not necessarily be you know subdued uh by any means but you just got to go lighter smaller to deal with the s the lower flows and again you're dealing with less push less velocity and so if you're running with some of the heavier stuff you wore prior you're just hanging up all the time so that's how you're adapting you know with some of those situations. Okay we covered water type clarity the bugs that you're seeing like under rocks or in vegetation the vegetation itself to help you with fly selection and things like that the water levels temperatures anything else that you are kind of paying attention to I mean if the if the answer is no that's that's covers pretty much everything I just I would say one other thing is I mean wild fish versus stockfish you know if you're fishing through an area and you if you catch stockfish then you can pretty much eliminate a lot of your selection of flies you know stockfish aren't the smartest fish they're just learning what's going on in this new environment they're in they're taste testing everything to find out if it's a food source or not and with that you can pretty much throw bigger flies uh get away with you know brighter stuff um and usually what that does is it allows you to actually get better hookups on stocked fish you know you don't want to go too big you don't want to go things like streamers or anything like that because they nip a lot uh but you know stuff that's a little brighter a little bigger is always a good way to go now if it's wild fish and you're catching more of the wild fish sometimes though you know if you do switch up and you're throwing stalker flies and you catch wild fish and you know then you know everybody's happy all the fish are feeding they're in a real aggressive feeding mode which is awesome uh but if you're not finding those wild fish on your stalker patterns and uh you know you know you got some wild fish or or you're in a wild fish section or away from where they typically stalk uh you move out of there you so you start off in a stalker pod and you start progressing up the river or whatever uh and then you get into you start losing or your your catch rate starts diminishing uh then start thinking like okay I might be back into more wild the wild trout population where they're keying in on actual aquatic insects then start transitioning into those types of patterns um you know so that could be another way to keep your without relying on trying to find the stocker pot every time uh how do you transition from wildfish or stockfish to wildfish you know so as you progress through the river because you know stockfish tend to pot up but it it just keeps your productivity going all you know throughout the the fishing session do you find Freestone versus tailwater too is that uh something you pay a lot of attention to with because you mentioned you know wild fish and big flies that's kind of like the best case you know that's the fun time that you're describing that's a good that's the good stuff big big chubby Chernobyl on you know big fish or even just like a big size 12 hairs here like I'm like that's what I wanted today.

Jason 45:01

I want to be fishing these size 22 you know but I find that on freestones I run into that a lot more. I I don't know if it's you know that's just my experience and limited experience that I have but you know I I tend to lean towards I I tend to not worry as much about size uh on a freestone and I don't know if that's because they're more opportunistic or or whatever or they're they don't have to be as picky but do you I'm interested in your perspective on that.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

Aaron Ross Powell Freestone streams, you know, they tend to fluctuate a lot. There's a lot of variables in that river ecosystem. Yeah like it changes more all these variables that you describe exactly so it's it's not a consistent environment you know that's influenced by a lot of a lot of uh external factors and so it keeps the fish kind of you know you have more biodiversity typically uh because you have fluctuations in temperature water levels um all you know as well as you have different tributaries come in it come in into the into the main stem which you know affects the carrying capacity you know of of the river ecosystem as well versus a tailwater you're typically dealing With a consistent environment, consistent temperature, uh, being that it's out of the bottom of a lake, usually, you know, you don't get much fluctuation except for levels of flow uh at times. You know, there might be certain things like um, you know, like on the San Juan River, you have uh the ant fall in the summer. So it's after the first one, first or second big thunderstorm, you get the carpenter ants that come out and and you know they're the queens are all flying around. So you know, that can be that can change, and that'll be the one factor that that people look for. Or, you know, when bait fish start running uh and get caught in the turbines, you know, and and get chopped up. Uh, you know, so uh that could be a another factor. But for the most part, it's always going to be midges close to the dam, and as you progress down, you're getting into a lot of your other mayflies. Um, that colder water uh keeps a consistent food source or or uh aquatic insect base, and then as your temperatures change, obviously your your bug community changes as well or develops.

Jason 47:23

Yeah, there's so many things, and it's all changing and different. Every day's different, right? It is. Every day you walk in the river, it's you're not that what's the quote? You're never the same man, it's never the same river. That's uh So I guess for somebody who's more of a novice or not as experienced, because I would I would imagine for you it's habitual for sure, but you know, second nature where you go and you observe these things and you know, I'm sure you miss things here and there, but do you uh recommend anything for people? Like do you do you look at it, you know, w would it be useful to look at it like a checklist, like go out and f you know, take the time and and go through these things? Because I think what has helped me a lot is being deliberate in my decision making, and I can't do the I can't have those good decisions if I don't. Do you have recommendations or how how to help people be mindful or or watch these kind of observations or have or have these have that ability on the river to observe?

SPEAKER_02 48:27

As far as recommendations for for people as they get out onto the onto the river, uh checklists are great, um, especially as you're starting to develop and and understand what it is you're looking for. You know, I knew I know for a long time it was recommended to take notes, have a little field journal.

Jason 48:45

Um Yeah, I started doing that. I did that.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

It's it's good because then you have a catalog, you have a reference, um, and then eventually you just start understanding the cycles of those rivers that you're on because you have this history. Just like anything, you know, observance is data collecting, you know, it it also helps you kind of determine what's coming up, but at the same time, you have these situations where, oh, this thunderstorm came through and blew up the river, or this anomaly happened. And as you run into that same or a similar situation down the road, uh, you're able to adapt to it. You're able to, okay, I fished in this situation before, I did this, and it worked. It you know, may have caught one or two fish, but yeah, look, I caught fish, I didn't get skunked that day. As you progress, um, it just becomes second nature again. And and I know a lot of your people that you've interviewed, and I've heard this on a lot of other podcasts and interviews, and you know, I say the same thing. It's time on the water, it's developing that understanding uh and just gaining that knowledge and confidence.

Jason 49:57

Thanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories, and artwork, check out my blog and online gallery at waitouthere.com. If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey, please subscribe and share. Until next time, Wade Out There